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  • Angelus987

    Angelus987 Archangel of Prowess

    #33647267 - 2 months ago

    In reply to DisneyDCFan

    Ah yes I've seen that. It's a massive improvement over his previous work.


    It's also really interesting. It's assumed the woman is Weiss' mother and it goes into how emotion can affect the Schnee semblance. Like how Weiss' accidentally summoned a Boarbatusk at the Schnee party.

  • disneydcfan

    disneydcfan FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Ace of Hearts

    #33647271 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Angelus987

    Yeah, I assumed it was Weiss's mother, too. Obviously not canon, but a really interesting twist. I also think it's interesting that everything about Angel is black, which could be not only because of her blindness, but alluding to the fact that she's an alcoholic and the black could be seen as the alcohol "tainting" her soul. 

  • AutumnOnFire

    AutumnOnFire FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold How may I be of service?

    #33647291 - 2 months ago

    In reply to AlbionBard

    Ohh, didn't know the rule existed. Okay, I think I'm following the rule pretty well. I'll show you guys what I got so far. Oh yeah, question three (Sorry), how do you post photos now? I got lost with the site redesign.


    In reply to DisneyDCFan

    That was pretty cool, I really like her design. Though I'm not entirely sure why anything happened, I'm pleased at the choreography. It's a lot better than what was shown in season 4 in my opinion.


  • MostlyFloof

    MostlyFloof

    #33647336 - 2 months ago

    In reply to AutumnOnFire

    I mean, it was flashier maybe. But I think that statement undermines how good Volume 4 was visually. Both the Tyrian and Nuckelavee fights had better structure and overall choreography (the fanimation had faster movement and might have looked "cooler" like some of the earlier RWBY fights, but it wasn't nearly as memorable as a lot of the V4 fight scenes were. Sometimes, less is more with fights. It's easy for the audience to just get lost in the spree of movement and just be impressed by how fast everything is happening). Also, the characters had a stiffness to them that I felt wasn't really present in V4, unless I'm misremembering. And they didn't emote as well. V4 really improved the expressions the characters made, during fights and outside of them. 


    The only thing this has above V4 is that it didn't really use that awkward air-movement effect that some fights had in V4. Beyond that, it's a great fan animation, but I think people should also respect that V4 actually looks good and probably took a crap ton of effort to make.

  • AutumnOnFire

    AutumnOnFire FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold How may I be of service?

    #33647373 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Gaowaii


    In my opinion, the V4 animation was flashier. Several more camera angles and close ups were used that I felt weren't necessary. For example, the fight against the Geist in V4 was overly complicated and cut up to display humour rather than display a difficult fight scene. Humour is good and all, but if you're going to showcase a team setting out on taking down a menace, do it like you mean it. Not to mention how many cuts there were for no reason, ex. Nora throwing Magnhild in the air for style. If you're angry, you would have shot to hurt the beast and then take the big swing. In V1 and the fanimation, each cut had a purpose to it, showcasing intention. Take a look at the first fight with the Nevermore. Almost every cut had a purpose to it, whether it be to show a character's concern for another, or a plan Ruby or Jaune had. In the animation, it was more intention based such as how Weiss was showing her finesse by laying out her sigils or "Angel" expressing what appears to be her next move.


    I found that none of the fights in V4 were as memorable as in V1 and maybe V2. Anyone can recall what happened, but there was never a defining moment that you can point out that was particularly cool. We all remember Sun's Gun-chucks vs. Torchwick's cane and how awesome that looked with time slowing down. For V4, it was never really about the fight itself, but the humour they added or the plot point, which is okay, but a fight is a fight, what RWBY is known for, and that's what we're arguing. Also, what happened to physics? Characters are launching themselves dozens of feet into the air without any sign of aura being used. Also people are levitating in mid air and accelerating as they so please, all for the sake of moving faster. 


    I will agree with you that earlier seasons were stiffer, however, that was the first season and they aren't as experienced and with a smaller crew. The way the characters emote was much better in V4, yes, but those were shown during moments of stillness and discussion, not in ongoing battle. For example, V4 Ep 6, when Qrow shows up at the end, you can't tell me someone going THAT fast, comes to a stop in THAT stance. It's  unbelievable and disrupts the worry/desperateness that Qrow felt when he needed to save Ruby. Two, watch when Ruby says "Fine!" and finds a perch to get a shot in, you tell me THAT wasn't being fast just for show. It could have just been shown through Ruby's scope (that she wasn't shown using) that the characters were flowing through each others movements and she couldn't get a good shot in because they were so close rather than moving quickly like two squirrels. As a result, it never feels like anyone's really getting hit until they slow it down to show you and a fight shouldn't be like that. You should see a fight progress with every hit each character takes. Also, they were going hard, but all of a sudden Tyrian just takes 3 punches? He blocked sniper bullets without a sweat! That's not an excuse.


    Granted, what I am arguing for is a fan animation and is by no means perfect. However, it does a better job conveying a meaningful fight between someone who can sweep the other person without breaking a sweat, but still refusing to kill their opponent.

    I respect that RWBY V4 has had a much better look to it, the decreased frame rate and the shadows are much better looking and the colour palette is much brighter which is wonderful. However, the flow of animation isn't done as well and behaves more like an advanced generic. It's not the worst, but not what it was before. That's my opinion though.

  • MostlyFloof

    MostlyFloof

    #33647378 - 2 months ago

    In reply to AutumnOnFire

    I think you're misinterpreting the intention of the Geist fight. It's the first fight of the Volume, it's not meant to be incredibly difficult. There's not a great deal of stuff at stake hear, beyond the Geist continuing to mess things up for the villagers, so viewing the cut-aways to more comedic moments as "wasted" is silly since the intention of the fight is just to present a cool and occasionally goofy action scene anyways. It would be different if, say, they cut away to a silly scene with Jaune while the rest of Team RNJR was getting slaughtered by Tyrian. I'd understand frustration there. In here, it just helps us have a good time. Now, it's totally fine if you didn't find those scenes funny, but that's not the same as them being pointless.


     The same could be said about the wasted scenes added for style. It's whole purpose in that scene is to be cool to look at, and it doesn't really break your suspension of disbelief unless you really force it because these are cool people that do cool things all the time. It's a few seconds of stylization that adds a bit of flair to this incredibly stylized universe and helps it come to life. 


    I think you're sort of looking at iconography the wrong way. The fact that everyone can recall what happened in the V4 fights is entirely the point of what makes them so well-structure and iconic. Sun's little exchange with Roman was pretty to look at, sure, but it was also just a mish-mash of attacks that you could never properly remember beyond just being aware that they indeed clashed. And that was the entire fight between Sun and Roman. People don't really remember the fights from V1 and V2, they mostly remember that fights happened and that they were cool, along with having a vague idea of what it might have looked like. It was very much like a hack-and-slash game. You really can't tell what's going on in detail but it all looks cool and memorable. Which is fine, there's nothing wrong with that style, but I wouldn't ever call it better than what V4 did.


    At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion, but I remember tons of moments from V4 in way clearer detail than I do moments from V1 and V2. Just to name a few, Blake jumping on Sun's clones to reach the Grimm Dragon was nicely choreographed and stood out, that one awesome sequence in Qrow vs Tyrian just before Qrow is disarmed is amazing to look at, super memorable, and way more smoothly animated than anything else in the entire show, and Team RNJR's manouvre to subdue the Nuckelavee was clever and exciting to watch. And the important thing to note is that these are just a few of the stand-out moments from the fights in V4. The point I'm trying to make is that the viewer has a very clear image of what happened in the entire fight, beyond just seeing a pretty light show. That's how I define good choreography.


    Also, I actually mentioned the lack of physics. It looks goofy as heck, but even with that in mind, I still found that V4 fights were just more fun to watch.


    I'd have to say that you're flat out wrong in regards to characters emoting in fights. Just take a look at the climax of the Geist fight, or basically anything with Tyrian in it. Or especially the Nuckelavee fights. Characters just express a lot more emotion now.


    Of course the adults were shown being fast for show. Because that scene was meant to show you something from Ruby's perspective, just how fast these older, better fighters move. It's so different from the rest of the fight because it's meant to be what the character sees, hence why it looks so different. Again, it isn't pointless, it has a very clear purpose which works well to make these fighters seem unbelievable. There in a whole new level of power, they're not supposed to feel like anything we've ever seen before. Nobody actually got hit in that fight, to be fair. That was the nature of the fight, they were both so evenly matched. There's nothing wrong with a fight being like that, a fight doesn't need to involve everyone taking a shit ton of damage to be engaging. Seeing Qrow and Tyrian go blow for blow like that was just a tense as anything else, and actually helped build up to the one injury that Qrow sustained in the entire battle, at least on-screen.


    I'd again have to disagree that this fanimation does a better job than what was presented in V4. Tyrian's fight against RNJR was a lot more kinetic and bouncy, it really felt like Tyrian was dancing around with the students rather than properly fighting them, and his movements were so well portrayed that he had an overwhelmingly alien feel to him, which helped convey just how above the students he was. This fanimation made the characters feel way closer in terms of power than that fight did, unless I'm misremembering it (which would be a criticism against the fight anyways)

  • MostlyFloof

    MostlyFloof

    #33647379 - 2 months ago

    (Though this essay is coming from someone who doesn't understand animation on a technical level. I'm just a big fan of animation and analysis of animation, so if I'm goofing up my everything someone please yell at me :3)

  • AutumnOnFire

    AutumnOnFire FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold How may I be of service?

    #33647380 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Gaowaii


    But yes, thank you. I'll be sure to keep that in mind. Just kind of struggling with the whole "less is more" thing. 

  • Malochroma

    Malochroma FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Treenerd Hugger

    #33647381 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Gaowaii


    "People don't really remember the fights from V1 and V2"


    Lies and slander.


    Proof: Me.


    Also, as someone who actually IS learning how to understand animation on a technical level, even if I'm working with 2D rather than 3D (65 frames in two weeks BOW BEFORE YOUR NEW GOD, PEONS) there's more to what made the Volumes 1 and 2 fights so memorable than just how long the scene held on a signature move. Motion weight, momentum, and camera movement all played a big part in Monty's choreography.

  • Lex_von_ghul

    Lex_von_ghul

    #33647384 - 2 months ago

    i remember all the fights from v1&2 my favorites were the roman vs sun&blake and team rwby vs roman in mech suit

  • MostlyFloof

    MostlyFloof

    #33647386 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Malochroma

    Well, maybe it's just me. I mean, V1 and V2 fights were always a visual feast, but they never left much of an impact beyond being able to remember that they were fun to watch. Would you say they were more memorable than the stuff that happened in V4? My argument is that the simplicity in the actual actions of the character helped the fights have a more understandable impact than what was presented in V1 and V2, which in turn was a lot more raw - less understood, more felt. At the end of the day, it's also very much down to what kind of style you prefer. The main argument I was trying to make in the first place was that the fan animation wasn't at all better than everything in V4, and that a lot of people undermine all the stuff the newest volume does really well.

  • disneydcfan

    disneydcfan FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Ace of Hearts

    #33647388 - 2 months ago

    I will never forget the Nevermore fight in V1. Especially Blake's animation when she was falling and then practically danced around the Nevermore with Gambol Shroud, that coupled with the amazing soundtrack will forever be one of my favorite pieces of RWBY animation, ever. Even if I am incredibly bitter about literally anything else involving Blake right now because of V4. 

  • Malochroma

    Malochroma FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Treenerd Hugger

    #33647390 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Gaowaii


    "Would you say they were more memorable than the stuff that happened in V4?"


    You mean, do I remember the choreography more? Absolutely. I adore the fights in V4 and the work the animation crew did on it (especially anything with Tyrian), don't get me wrong, and I will defend them to my dying breath, but nothing seeing Roman's fights or watching that fucking amazing tracking shot in Penny v. Pyrrha (which was one of the last fights Monty ever animated, IIRC)? As someone whose favorite thing is watching motion in animation, that is my jam. Also Pyrrha v. CRDL. Just. All of it.


    I remember the fights of V4 (well, most of them; Blake and Sun v Sea Dragon tends to slip my mind a lot). I remember the motion of Volumes 1, 2, and parts of 3. As someone who's got my own RWBY OC animation somewhere deep, deep in the works (frickin' deadlines for other projects), I can tell you, there's a lot more to the early fights than you're giving credit for. Lots of subtleties in the movement that are just reaaaaal fun to watch.

  • MostlyFloof

    MostlyFloof

    #33647391 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Malochroma

    Well, it might just be like I said. The subtleties in V1 and V2 aren't something I really understood, even if I felt them and they affected the viewing experience. That being said, the fights in V4 just resonate more with me. Perhaps it's because I've been over-exposed to so many long-running shounen anime like the pathetic weeaboo trash that I am, but I find that I remember the specific choreography of V4 rather well, in comparison to the stuff in earlier fights.


    Then again, it might also just be that the animation had a bit more polish? Who can really say.

  • Lex_von_ghul

    Lex_von_ghul

    #33647392 - 2 months ago

    one should never call themselves weeaboo trash take pride in your hobbies.

  • MostlyFloof

    MostlyFloof

    #33647393 - 2 months ago

    In reply to kuro_takanashi101

    I take pride in nothing! I am a sinful existence! Sinful, I tell you!!

  • Lex_von_ghul

    Lex_von_ghul

    #33647400 - 2 months ago

    i shall purge thy sinful existence with fire *space marine voice* for the emperor.

  • Sosen7x

    Sosen7x FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Comet

    #33647410 - 2 months ago

    Monty had a great handle on fight choreography and it showed through volumes 1-3.  The motions, camera angles, some minor animation tricks to portray speed when the rigs don't flow as well all made for great, fast paced scenes that are quite memorable.  V4 with all the extra polish, bigger animation staff and move away from Poser had some growing pains (Blake/Sun vs Sea Dragon cause fuck physics, and a few extra frames to stretch out the fights) but they still managed to keep a bulk of the feel that came from seasons prior.  From the looks of the Weiss short, it looks like we'll get a similar level of control and improvement from volume to volume like we had from V1-3


    In reply to Malochroma

    65 frames in two weeks is impressive, but I'll still fite being called a peon. (I've got a project in mind that will be fun, but there's so much to learn and the aggravating part of making multiple models not look like shit since I have no formal training)

  • Lex_von_ghul

    Lex_von_ghul

    #33647421 - 2 months ago

    you should watch dead fantasy it's one of monty's old works before he was hired by roosterteeth

  • Jacinta-Capelety

    Jacinta-Capelety

    #33647444 - 2 months ago

    To throw my two cents into the current debate, while I think the fights from V4 were really nice, especially the Tyrian VS Qrow fight, the single stand out moments in V1-3 are what made the over all fights more memorable for me, because when I see one little segment of something that I find super awesome and memorable, my brain instantly wants to memorize, not only that moment, but all the moments leading up to and immediately after it. Yeah, Ruby decapitating the nevermore was definitely the biggest highlight of that fight, but I can remember all the details leading up to it: the cool little spin Weiss did as she jumped up to freeze the nevermore's tail, the way Blake launched Gamble Shroud for Yang to intercept and pull taunt like a slingshot, the way Weiss summoned her glyph and made it change colors as Ruby shot her self up to the slingshot by firing Cresent Rose and then doing a really cool midair flip, and even the exact banter that briefly went on between Weiss and Ruby before Weiss launched Ruby.

    The V4 fights on the other hand, while still nice, are just kind of a blur to me. The only parts I specifically remember are when they had similar stand-alone moments, like when Nora fell backwards off the tower in the Nuckalavee fight and went from looking calm, to that hysterical "I'm gonna kill this thing" manic grin, or when Qrow briefly lost his weapon and straight up punched Tyrian bar-fight style. Unfortunately, those moments are so small that it doesn't help me remember the moments leading up to and immediately after them. Other than the moments themselves, the fights from V4 are just kind of one big motion blur for me, and the mid-battle breaks for scenes of Jaune in pain in the geist fight, or Nora and Ren's heart to heart during the Nuckalavee fight kinda broke the pacing of the fight for me and made getting use to the momentum of the fight more difficult. Don't get me wrong, those scenes were anything but bad, and Ren and Nora's heart to heart scene was both necessary for the scene, and just flat out precious, but in terms of how it affected the fight scene, it felt kinda like a pacing whiplash, going from high paced fight, to slow paced conversation, then back again.


    Also, as a side note here, I'm not sure what Gaowaii meant when they were talking about how the fights were more or less easy to "understand". Understand what? I'm not trying to be rude here, I just legit don't understand what they meant by that. They don't seem to be talking about memorization of the choreography, so I don't know what else they could be talking about. It doesn't seem like they're talking about the impact the fight had on the story, because V1-4 all seem easy enough to understand how the outcome will affect the story (V1 Ex: If they can't beat the nevermore and deathstalker, they're going to have a really tough time getting back to the school unscathed. V2 Ex: If they can't beat Roman's mech, best case scenario is they're all able to run away. V3 Ex: If they can't beat their opponent, they can't progress to the next round of the tournament. V4 Ex: They loose to the nuckalavee, they are DEAD!)

    Sorry for the text wall. I just had a lot to say.

  • AutumnOnFire

    AutumnOnFire FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold How may I be of service?

    #33647457 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Gaowaii


    I don't think you remember what we're arguing about. We're arguing about the flow of how the fight went, not its intention. Of course they were trying to ease us back into the world of RWBY through its humour and visual appeal, however, I'm saying that the flow it had with fights wasn't as prominent. You're suspension of disbelief is held up by the first time you've viewed it where as if you watch it the second time or third time critically, you can see the flaws of what happened and may see what could have been improved. For example, that second last shot with the Geist. When Nora does her combo with Ruby and do their corkscrew (which looked cool but i wasn't a fan of) she swings her hammer, but it doesn't even look like she hit the Geist. It just isn't satisfying. You can add as much style as you want, but it has to make sense for the situation and the characters. 


    You can just as easily apply your statement to the V4 fight scenes, only it feels like they moved more jittery and not flowing into each other movements which was RWBY's bread and butter. Again, take a look at Tyrian's fight with Qrow, there isn't a single moment in that fight where you can recall an attack with a sword or from Tyrian without them doing it for story purposes or making no sense in general (ex. Qrow punching Tyrian). You just said that the fight scenes in V1 and V2 are "cool and memorable", after saying they weren't. Might have defeated your argument. In V4, it relies on characters interacting mid-fight, and that's all right, sure, but it has to make sense in the fight as opposed to the fight being put there to surround a plot point.


    I will agree with you on the the Qrow vs Tyrian fight being good, probably the best out of the season. They moved in a serious battle, minus the interruptions. I have to take back my statement about them moving like squirrels. Looking closer, it was Tyrian who was moving away and Qrow chasing, and that makes sense, Tyrian is a fighter that relies on speed to throw off his opponents on his position. The battle with the Nucklelavee was not as cool, in my opinion, because they laid out what would happen and, of course, it'll work, because plot. It has to. So I wasn't as moved to see the Nucklelavee defeated because I knew the plan was going to work. Hell, i wasn't even given the chance to figure out the plan on my own see the plan develop in Ruby or Jaune's eyes.


    If they are so evenly matched, then I would like to see them evenly matched in all aspects, including who can take a punch. Speaking of punch, that's the part that erks me most of all, Qrow being able to punch Tyrian with no sweat doesn't say a whole lot about how evenly matched they are. I feel I HAVE to say this over and over. It just doesn't make sense in my eyes and feels like an after thought. And yes, they did take damage, shown by Tyrian and Qrow's auras "phasing out" (I don't know what it's called) after they exit the house. I want to SEE what caused that, and you can't tell me busting through a wall did all that.


    I would say that the fanimation did do a good job, especially for a 5 minute fight based on a character we know almost nothing about. The way she fought calmly and procedurally shows the intention, or at least implies the intention, that she wasn't going for a lethal attack, but not lowering her expectations on how serious she's fighting. And that's just 5 minutes. Tyrian had whole segments of an episode to show his personality so a fighting style like his is to be expected. Am I saying it's bad? No, I still enjoyed it. Is it better? In some aspects that Monty failed to show (i guess emotes). However, does the show's portrayal of fights have flaws? Yes. It doesn't flow nearly as well and doesn't make use of motions the characters and, instead, makes their movements more jittery, excusing it as quickness.


  • Malochroma

    Malochroma FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Treenerd Hugger

    #33647463 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Sosen7x


    The Weiss short had some great choreography, but the camera composition was a little off. The Big Moment of Weiss taking out seven Winterwolves in a few seconds would have been a lot more engaging and fluid instead if instead of a static wide shot, it had been a closer tracking shot that focused on Weiss as she moved from Beowulf to Beowulf.


    Camera work and editing matters a lot in action sequences; it's why someone asked about it in the Sunday showing of the RWBY panel. Where Monty put the camera and for how long was a huge part of what made the Big Moments of the fights bigger, and it's something I want to try and replicate in Pumpkin's Big Moments.

  • Sosen7x

    Sosen7x FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Comet

    #33647484 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Malochroma

    Camera work seems like it's the biggest hurdle that CRWBY is facing now.  It's close but they still miss some spots for more dynamic shots.  Looking forward to seeing the pumpkin animation.  So many people with projects going on I need to force the drive to two ideas of my own

  • archive_scrolls

    archive_scrolls

    #33647699 - 2 months ago

    hey guys if anybody here likes to rp and rwby I have a discord link to one if it's ok to post it here.

  • Monotony

    Monotony

    #33647713 - 2 months ago

    Okay... So I've let myself go and missed 5000+ posts on this thread...


    ...Anyone care to cue me in on anything juicy that's passed? :P