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Pyrrha Nikos general discussion

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  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33707375 - 11 months ago

    In reply to SAmaster

    Maybe. But did RvB ever have this level of complexity with regards to multiple plot lines and constantly adding new characters. Also, it seems like the closest they've had to an excuse for the messy story so far is "Monty kept adding cool stuff in in V1 and V2, and now we're having trouble integrating that all into the story."


    In reply to WrightKnight

    Also, considering they've flat out said that they're not going to write a timeline for the story, let alone an internal one just for their usage, since it will "make plot holes more likely to appear" (Someone explain how that works? I guess it lets them get away with moving people around Remnant without respect for distances.) shows that they don't really know how to world-build properly or create a consistent high fantasy story at all. 

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33707376 - 11 months ago

    In reply to SAmaster

    A decent bit of them have gone to rationalizing why the latest stuff is still OK.

    Raven's bomb essentially moved the "dead is dead" crowd to "OK, resurrections are good...but NOT if it's Pyrrha".  Honestly, I figured I would see people abandon their standards to board the Rooster Loyalty Train once Pyrrha came back (should such a thing occur), not long before it.

    The RWBY Discussion thread is still full of the same echo chamber crybabies, so the delusion there is still in full swing.

    I've had to deal with an elitist Cinder Fall Fanboy, and in all likelihood, is still following this very topic, despite claiming abuse by us and promising to "leave the topic" twice now.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33707378 - 11 months ago

    In reply to spoolofwhool


    Wait....they ACTUALLY said that?  They are NOT going to construct a chronology for RWBY?  You know, something they SHOULD HAVE DONE RIGHT FROM THE FUCKING START?

    At this point, it's clear that, if we take what they said to be true, that they should have reined in Monty from the very start, and they, for some reason, they with the years of experience writing RvB, chose not to do.

  • SAmaster

    SAmaster

    #33707379 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    I think at this point anyone who leaves the fandom at that point (Pyrrha revival) would have been growing distant from the series to begin with, and that would just serve as their excuse. Like my reaction to Zombie Ward in agents of SHIELD.

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    Not on this scale. The first five seasons had a very consistent cast. The second five added a lot of characters, namely those related to project freelancer, but they had clear arcs, and were introduced and dealt with in timely manners, such as the Meta being a good arc villain with a satisfying sendoff. The plot was also much more simplistic- there would typically be one plot-line with the variation being how each character approached and reacted to it.

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33707380 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    A Miles quote from RTX:

    "Anytime you bring in like... official dates and stuff... that's when plot holes can come up, um and if you just kinda... keep it vague you don't worry about the plot holes you just worry about the story and stuff..."

  • SAmaster

    SAmaster

    #33707382 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    I think Monty could get away with it. 


    Like Kojima is an utter madman, but one who can pull it off. I think V1-3 where he had the most influence were the best. He did have issues with adding too much at the last second, but I think he pulled it off mostly. 


    What I find weird is with miles and Kerry, being unable to trim the fat. Like we’ve ditched a bunch of the old characters, and the plot is still too large and unwieldy, with pointless characters being added and taken away.

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33707383 - 11 months ago

    In reply to SAmaster

    Exactly. They're capable of handling simple plots, and I bet that those plots also took place in the same area as well, not like Rwby where it spread over the map. One thing they don't seem to be able to do at all is pace out separate plotlines concurrently, where location and chronological time point are changing. 

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33707384 - 11 months ago

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    Basically, it allows them to play games with the timeline to justify anything they do.  That's not just lazy, that's irresponsible.  But then, it's not like they aren't playing fast and loose with the rules of their key set-pieces (AURA).  I'm making it official: season six WILL be make-or -break for me, and to be plainly honest, I fully expect to be leaving RWBY behind by the end of it.

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33707385 - 11 months ago

    In reply to SAmaster

    They're also just rushing it. One thing I've decided on is that V5 would've been way better if Menagerie had been the climax, and Battle of Haven was the climax of V6 instead. WF could've also been completely resolved mid-V6 instead of being crammed alongside the main fight and being greatly reduced so it doesn't steal the spotlight. 

  • tin-foilhat

    tin-foilhat FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33707386 - 11 months ago

    In reply to SAmaster


    Pessimistic. RWBY has lost a lot of its charm for many people which I don't blame them for. RWBY is very much lacking in its old school "Rule of Cool" and is starting to feel more like a standard drama. I'm not saying drama is bad. It can make for great and compelling stories. Lord knows I love the Dragon Age games for the complexity of their lore and depth. 


    But with RWBY loosing it's original appeal, aka the jaw-dropping fighting, and them taking TWO WHOLE VOLUMES and still haven't found the fight footing yet (though I will concede the V5 finale was a step in the right direction), I think they're trying to up the quality of writing and drama which I feel is pretty hit and miss at this point. 


    Raven was the main antagonist of V5 but her whole build up since the end of V2 was "she was scared." Like, the Spring Maiden reveal was brilliant, but her reasons for distrusting Ozpin were shallow and un-enlightening. I think we expected a complex and morally gray character when really she just turned out to be a self-serving bitch.   

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33707388 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    Exactly. That's what he's saying. They don't care at all. They're just trying to push out a show. The fact that they announced that the script for V5 was "finished" four days after V5E1 aired for First Members just goes to further show how unprofessional they are. 

    I'm probably going to keep with the show until it collapses and ends, as an excellent exercise in not writing a fantasy story. At this point I'm not following it for quality production, or even much of an engaging one either. 

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33707389 - 11 months ago

    In reply to tin-foilhat

    Raven is basically a Salem-in-training at this point.  They should have stuck with the "slice of life with monsters" premise that was initially presented to us.  Again, broke the Contract with the Reader there.  Either that, or they should have come clean and been honest with their audience, that the death of Monty Oum created a void that they are not likely to recover from, and ended it at season 2.  With how many blind loyalists they already have, you know that, with the right words, they would have not suffered much from saying that.

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33707390 - 11 months ago

    In reply to tin-foilhat

    Exactly. And that's why I think that conversation between Raven and Yang absolutely eviscerated her character beyond any point of being interesting, just like how Hazel's sudden shift did to a lesser degree. Someone who left Ozpin because she wanted to help what she considered to be her true family, which is how it was portrayed in V4, was way more interesting than how V5 twisted her to be. The additional issue is that it also set her up for character development, which is not what the show has time for. 

  • SAmaster

    SAmaster

    #33707391 - 11 months ago

    In reply to tin-foilhat

    You know that was the original argument I made on the RWBY Discussion board? That I felt cheated by the V3 finale because I felt I’d been lied to? I was sold on an action-comedy trope-fest, not a serious melodrama. For which I was mocked.


    I said earlier Raven was, maybe a better way to phrase it is uninteresting. I initially said unlikeable. There is merit in a villain you can hate, but she wasn’t even that hateable like Adam had been. Her characterization was all over the place and none of it was attractive.

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    Also the finale fight as a whole was just awful. The fights were entirely static, and they cut from any intesresting part of the fights, and they could have done so much in a multi-melee brawl.

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    I mean that’s just hard for anyone. They were being way over ambitious.

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33707392 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    Exactly. The slice of life with cute girls with cool weapons learning to fight monsters would've perfectly sustained the show. While it seems that it was always their intention somewhat to expand it out, it's ridiculous that the show's description does nothing to portray that at all, like I posted above. 


    In reply to SAmaster

    Yeah, final fight was terribly animated. Not only with all the cuts, but even the parts they showed just had empty backgrounds because they basically animated each fight in a separate copy of the room and never integrated them together except when it was relevant. (Read relevant as needing protagonists to stare randomly at other protagonists while the person they're fighting does nothing.)

    Even the Cinder vs Raven fight, which people are saying is one of the best fights in Rwby, really isn't. It's just flashy, with little substance. The moment they pulled out the giant swords it crossed the line into comedic, which ruined the tension a lot, combined with all the falling rocks.


  • SAmaster

    SAmaster

    #33707394 - 11 months ago

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    I feel there are interesting parallels to draw between RWBY and Naruto, but they aren’t readily apparent to me.

  • SAmaster

    SAmaster

    #33707393 - 11 months ago

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    It also doesn’t help we don’t really see much interaction between her and her tribe that justifies or even hints at such a loyalty. 


    Gets extra worse when you remember she was happily married at least long enough to bare a child.

  • SAmaster

    SAmaster

    #33707395 - 11 months ago

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    That explains a lot- like how they skipped anything important about Weiss getting stabbed.

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33707396 - 11 months ago

    In reply to SAmaster

    Yeah. The tribe was also horribly portrayed as well. Remember the part where Qrow said he and Raven went to Beacon to learn how to fight huntsmen? Well, if that was true then I would've expected the average tribe member to be at least equal to a huntsman-in-training in terms of strength, since Raven would've taught them how to fight. Instead everyone in the tribe save Raven and Vernal are complete mooks. 

    The married thing is still weird. I think my main theory is that the previous tribe leader died so Raven returned to lead the tribe because Qrow refused. That still doesn't really explain why she would've settled down enough to actually have a kid if she always considered her primary responsibility to be to the tribe. I suppose maybe she thought that having a kid with a strong person like Tai would eventually lead to a strong heir for the tribe or something. 

  • SAmaster

    SAmaster

    #33707397 - 11 months ago

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    That’s the thing. That backstory adds complexity. Think back to season 4. We know Raven abandoned her daughter to live a life of rape and pillage. This makes her a horrible human being.


    We also know from Tais word that she had friends, and family in Vale, presumably she got along great with Tai, Qrow, and Summer. We see hints in how Qrow and Tai have a sitcom rivalry, but are still family. 


    There is complexity there, complexity to be explored! We see great hints with Tai and Qrow, Tai for instance being out of the game, but still an ally for the good guys for instance, or when Qrow is muttering sorry to Tai after being poisoned.


    But when we finally get to Raven that complexity is abandoned- she shows no internal conflict over Yangs situation, no concern for Ruby, no sentiment over her past, no hesitation at killing Qrow (even if it was probably a ploy). Raven demonstrated no complexity until she shows she’s grabbing power out of fear but even that falls flat as Yang points out how counterintuitive her plan is. 

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33707401 - 11 months ago

    In reply to SAmaster

    No proof of rape, and we discussed the horrible person aspect in V4, so I'll gloss over it.


    I agree that they somewhat created the outline of a complex character then filled it with someone who isn't that complex. That's not really an issue though, since she doesn't need to be a complex character, any more than Qrow needs to be or is, and she was even less significant to the story than him. The reveal of her being the spring maiden did kind of shove her into a more significant spotlight, but they solved that problem when they wrote her out back out of it with the whole cowardly thing and giving up the relic. I think I saw another quote actually, that they didn't know what they were going to do with her during V3 development until they came up with the idea that she was actually the maiden. 

    Either way, the simplistic way they directly showed the character was fine for explaining her thoughts on the Yang situation, coupled with Qrow's words in V3, as well as her feelings on the past, though it doesn't explain why she formed that past in the first place. I don't get what you're referencing with Ruby, and the Qrow thing was so obviously fake by that end scene. 

    The cowardly thing was just a massive cop-out to getting her out of the story and explaining the inconsistencies with her character presented previously, and doesn't even fix everything because it just adds more inconsistencies. It didn't give her any complexity, and if anything just took it away because it just replaced everything about her with "she's a coward running and hiding," instead of at least truly believing in an ideology most of us would consider reprehensible. The sad thing though is that they're probably going to have some character development for her anyways, even though it's not needed at all and would just waste character time. 



  • SAmaster

    SAmaster

    #33707402 - 11 months ago

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    I wasn’t being overly literal in my phrasing ‘rape and pillage’. 


    Well Ruby is the daughter of her ex-husband, and her former friend who died, who is the younger half-sister to her daughter, who she has never met, tutored by her brother. I would expect Raven to at least be curious about Ruby rather than be so dismissive- what reason would she have to actively avoid even discussing her? I would think even a cruel callous person would be mildly intrigued at the very least.


    I do hope her reunion with Tai shows why a nice guy like him had anything good to say about her.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33707405 - 11 months ago

    In reply to SAmaster

    I honestly hope that he straight-up lied to Yang about the kind of person she was, and just didn't expect her to fixate on finding her for all those years.  Again, it's VERY hard to sell the idea that she actually genuinely cared about anyone other than herself.

  • SAmaster

    SAmaster

    #33707406 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    I think you could write a good explanation for how Raven changed so much in eighteen years- a lot can happen in that time. 


    My parents are divorced and the way my mums made peace with it matches a lot with how Tai has made peace with Raven.


    But given how shallow her personality was in V5, they REALLY shot themselves in the foot in regards to writing that explanation.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33707409 - 11 months ago

    Some parts of what has been said I agree with but other parts I dont agree with. 

    But I dont have the energy to discuss nor the time really seeing as how I am in the process of moving soon like a few days soon.


    So rather then do that are you guys aware there is an arkos week currently going on?

    https://arkos-week.tumblr.com/

    Lots of cool stuff with it.