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Is Cinder Truly Evil?

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  • ClNDERFALL

    ClNDERFALL FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Fall Maiden of Remnant

    #33485166 - 11 months ago

    I know most people want Cinder's head on a pike so I don't expect this to be a popular thread, but humor me.  Is she really evil?  If I think back on everything that she's done I can literally count the people that she's killed on one hand.  I'm not saying that she's a good person by any stretch of the imagination, but she doesn't seem to fit the typical villain mold & there are several reasons for this:  


    1). When Cinder infiltrates the Cross Continental Transit Tower in Volume II, she doesn't kill any of the guards even though it may have been in her best interest to do so.  She definitely makes their day a lot worse but they live.


    2). Cinder is in control of the fights during the Vytal Festival & yet there is a surprising lack of carnage. Yang was eliminated from the tournament with little more than a wounded ego while Mercury wasn't even injured to begin.  The only casualty of the Vytal Festival — was a robot.


    3). In Volume IV, Cinder is being written very sympathetically, which is not what someone would expect from a villain character.  After we discovered Torchwick was little more than hired help at the end of Volume I — his writing remained consistent because that's who his character always was.  He never acted any different than he should.  Cinder, on the other hand, has a lot to hide it seems & she is being played as someone who is easy to empathize with.  Her motives are still unclear but she is a far cry from the smirking and confident villain of Volumes II & III.


    4). This is all conjecture of course, but there is another interesting point.  When Pyrrha is killed at the end of Volume III, Cinder — for lack of a better word — disintegrates her.  Everything but her crown.  This may simply be an artistic choice from Rooster Teeth but if the rest of her armor disintegrated — along with her body — why would the crown remain?  


    In conclusion, I don't think Cinder is an evil person.  I don't think she's a good person either but at this point we know so little about her it's hard to draw a final conclusion.  I would classify her as an anti-hero — someone who does bad things for what they believe is a good cause.  I could be 1000% wrong about this —


    — but if I am right, I totally called it and you should build a statue in my honor.  Something cool like me on a horse — no!  A motorcycle!

  • MisCon

    MisCon

    #33485263 - 11 months ago

    In reply to Cinder4President

    I'm so confused... tex


    Ahhh, Cinder doesn't have to have a bloodlust to be evil, but she may very well have one. Remember when they were watching the Grimm carnage, and Emerald said it was sad, and with a smile, Cinder says it was "horrible"? Oh, don't underestimate her bloodlust...


    Movies don't always get evil right, but a surefire sign of evil is a complete lack of compassion, not necessarily the killcount. If anything, I think Em might be "not evil", but Cinder definitely is.


    But about all those times she could have killed, lets take a look at why she didn't.


    First, it's kind of a kids show. They don''t need excessive murder. Infact the lack of death is partly why Penny and Pyrrha hurt so much. Second, there are consequences to murder. Someone gets beat up, but is otherwise ok and not seriously injured, and he can call the cops, and they might look, but they won't look too long for a suspect. Someone dies, and the cops are searching everywhere and studying every detail. Murder has consequences. Even if the show doesn't focus on them, it's expected to be taken with some seriousness.


    So, the guards in volume 2. Had Cinder killed them, sh*t would have gone down. Ironwood would have POUNDED Oz's desk and bellowed "SOMEONE killed my men! I think we need to find that person at all costs!" Instead, they are idly discussing what, if any, damage was done and who it might be. Cinder intends to hang around. If she was some assassin/spy from a foreign kingdom here to steal info and escape, it matters not how many she kills; when they go searching for her, she is long gone. She has to stay, however, and blend in. Additionally, dead bodies might cancel the Vytal festival, which she NEEDS for her plan to work.


    As for deaths in the Vytal Festival Tourney, well, picking the matches doesn't have any control over deaths, since it was intended to be a safe, sportsmanlike event. But she did so to ensure her team makes it to the final rounds, and then engineer a "murder" of Penny-bot at the right time. Possibly, she would have gotten Em to trick someone into killing a human, but when she found the secret android project from Atlas, well that just bolstered the weight of her propaganda message, as well as made killing it much more easy with Pyrrha, and tarnished Pyrrha's name. Had Pyrrha lived, she might have been branded a murderer. Basically, death was not the goal at the tourney, since any death would have put everything on hold. Humiliation and defamation was her goal.


    And her character now? Sympathetic? More like her "just desserts". Does she seem happy? Humble? Ready to change her ways? No. She's pissed. Why? Epic laryngitis, and a lost eye, and possibly other pains and discomfort we can't see yet. Salem showing sympathy for her? That's manipulation. Unless Salem is somehow her mother (NOT likely), if she sympathizes for Cinder at all, its because Cin is just as ruthless of a woman as she is. Cinder DID succeed in her mission, almost completely, and Salem respects that. Had she failed, or if she fails in the future, Salem will probably kill her or replace her, or just lock her up until she needs Cinder's maiden powers. IF Cinder ever switches sides, it won't be because of her conscience, but because Salem will betray her. Salem is a Sith Lord. Ol' Palps might send her valentines cards for all we know...


    And what she did to Pyrrha? We have NO way to be sure, but it sure looks like her version of a Mortal Kombat fatality to me. Why she left the crown? Most likely for dramatic storytelling than anything else. Who knows.


    No, Cinder is definitely evil. No question. But if she ever changes sides, it won't be because of some good that lurks within her, but maybe some good that she acquires from somewhere, or someone, else.... [coughAmberIsInHerHeadcough]


    BTW, love that reference! Ah, the good ol' days of RvB!

  • ClNDERFALL

    ClNDERFALL FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Fall Maiden of Remnant

    #33485323 - 11 months ago

    In reply to MisCon


    First things first — thank you for the kind words towards the end, I know it's an obscure reference but still a good one.


    Everything you said has a ring of truth & I am very willing to admit that Cinder could simply be evil & cruel.  But I still stand by what I said.  


    1.)  Yes, it is an animated show & the lack of deaths is part of what made the end of Volume III so shocking.  Still, it's best to remember that it's not a kid's show & murder is not something alien to the Kingdom of Vale.


    Volume II quite literally opens with a murder & I highly doubt that any of those White Fang members who fought against Penny at the end of Volume I are still in this world.  By leaving the guards alive — granted, Cinder didn't know she would have to fight Ruby as well — she left the authorities with a description of the person who infiltrated the tower.  In fact, her actions led to the pre-mature invasion by Torchwick at the end of Volume II.


    2.)  You're right, Penny was the best choice for casting as much doubt as possible — but really, all Cinder needed to do was ensure her team reach the finals & have a graphic display of power to send fear and doubt into people.  Any number of contestants could have filled that role — she settled on a robot.


    3.)   When Cinder gains the Fall Maiden's powers, she simply watches as Jaune & Pyrrha literally run past her.  Basically, she let them go.  That's not really what I would expect from someone who was truly evil.  


    4.) We all know that Miles & Kerry are sociopaths (just kidding guys, I love you both) and there's no way an important character death would happen off-screen.  We know that the Ozpin we knew is gone but we never actually saw Cinder kill him.  There's no real evidence to support the claim other than — what, her word?


    5.)  She is written as a sympathetic character.  It's clear the others in Salem's group don't like her and I get the impression that she didn't know the true depths of what she was getting into when she signed onto whatever damn fool idealistic crusade Salem pitched her way.  But time will tell.  


    If she is evil, there is still enough evidence there to support that stance.  


    But if she's not — well, I think that would be a really interesting development.

  • wedwarrd45

    wedwarrd45 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33485362 - 11 months ago

    Does bad things for a good cause? She outright said she wanted power.


    She had no reason or justification to kill Pyrrha the way she did. There was no benefit whatsoever to be had. She did it anyway. Evil.


    And you call this sympathetic? Aww, poor baby, the big kids are mean to her and the Maiden powers aren't everything she thought they'd be. If she's only now waking up to what kinds of people she's been working with... pass the popcorn. I'm not going to cry for her.

  • ClNDERFALL

    ClNDERFALL FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Fall Maiden of Remnant

    #33485383 - 11 months ago

    In reply to wedwarrd45


    Well, you want power for a reason.  I'm curious what that reason is.


    And — if I may play Devil's advocate —  her fight against Pyrrha was technically justified.  Don't get me wrong, I still miss Pyrrha just as much as anyone — but watch that fight again.


    Pyrrha sought her out.


    If there was some other part to Cinder's plan — we really don't know.  And I'm not blaming Pyrrha either.  She acted on what information she had at the time.


    As I wrote in my first post — I'm still not so certain that she actually killed Pyrrha.  I understand that many of my speculations are pure conjecture but there is just so little we know about Cinder.  She claims to be from Mistral & desires power.  That's about all we know.


    But again — power for what?


    I've never said she's a good person because I don't think she is.  To put it into perspective, I don't think Deadpool is a good person either — but I don't think he's evil.


    True evil is a very long descent & Cinder hasn't put in the mileage. 


    Once again, I don't think she's good.  I think she has her own goals & wants power in order to see those goals come true.

  • Blue-Rose-89

    Blue-Rose-89

    #33485495 - 11 months ago

    In reply to Cinder4President


    I've seen fans compare team RWBY's mindset to teenagers that enter college. Some teens believe that they know what life is all about but when they are hit with reality they begin question if everything they thought they knew about life and if the path they're taking is worth it in the long run. It's possible that Cidner is going through that phase as we speak.


    We know Cinder wants power but we don't know why. It's easy to say "because she's greedy and evil" but there is an alternative to that line of thinking. When people want power it's because they're trying to compensate for something (failing to protect a loved one, was a victim of a terrible event, inferiority complex etc). Given that Cinder's from Mistral it's not hard to imagine that she has seen her fair share of humanity's ugly side. Whatever reasons Cinder has for joining Salem, she must've believed that if she got power all of her life problems will be solved. Obviously this backfired on her because despite achieving her goal she's still looked down upon her 'co-workers' and the woman, whom we can assume has been giving her special treatment, is beginning to show her true nature by putting her through training from hell. In a way, Cinder is getting a reality check just like all the other characters. She might be beginning to question if her goal is really worth it. Is power is so important that you're willing trade your body, mind, and soul, just to achieve your goal, Cinder?


    The right answer should be 'no' but since I have a feeling that Cinder is going to be a tragic villain of sort (yes, you can do that without them becoming a good guy ), I can see her sticking by Salem's side regardless of whatever doubts she has in the future because she not only would she feel obligated to stay by Salem, but  wants to live in her own fairy tale world where she will get her "happy ending".



    Of course this is all speculation. If I end up wrong on my thoughts on Cinder then I will accept the mistake and move on.

  • MisCon

    MisCon

    #33485897 - 11 months ago

    In reply to Cinder4President

    Your bringing up Deadpool is an interesting point. Is Deadpool a good person? No. Is he an asshole? Yup. But there's one difference between him and Cinder... BAD@$$ SKILLZ!!! ZING!


    No, really though. He definitely isn't selfless, but he does have people he loves and cares about. There are people he puts above himself, and that is what good is about. Evil isn't about kill count, about disregard for life. As awesome as it is to see Vader put one of his failed officers out of his misery, that's not always a good idea. Even Salem spared Tyrian, despite his lost tail.


    No, real evil is about putting yourself before others, and we've seen ZERO compassion from Cinder. Em and even Merc have some goodness left, and Em I could see defecting. Cinder? Couldn't you see her stabbing Salem in the back at the nearest chance? Maybe she's starting to rethink her life choices as Salem abuses her, but that doesn't make her good. And if she IS being deceived and manipulated and we are supposed to feel sorry, that doesn't mean her motives were good.


    From what I see, she wants power, and she has no compassion for anyone in her way. Just because she doesn't kill senselessly doesn't mean she is good, only that she has no need for murder. It's not like she's a Marvel villain [coughRedSkullcough].


    Try this on: Tyrian LOVES murder! I'm pretty sure he is some kind of assassin. Despite being INSANE, do you think he might be able to come to the good side, IF AND ONLY IF he recovers his sanity? Tyrian has at least one good trait, his loyalty. If you removed his wanton bloodlust, do you think he could be good? His violent insanity is the only real evil he has. Even HE could have a tragic backstory, something that pushed him to this, and we could have sympathy for him. Saveable? Not unless he stops being a psycho, but if he DID, yes. He has some honor, some courteousness. He stalls in battle to talk for some level of sportsmanship. Torckwick does it to either grandstand, or stall in hopes he can find a way to escape. Tyrian doesn't brag; he LOVES his job!

  • ClNDERFALL

    ClNDERFALL FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Fall Maiden of Remnant

    #33485964 - 11 months ago

    Well, I don't believe Cinder is a good person — I pretty much went out of my way to make that point abundantly clear.  But you are right, evil isn't about a kill count which is why I based my opinion on choices Cinder made.  There were several times when resorting to violence & murder would have made her job so much easier.  Instead, she pretty much went out of her way to let people go.


    But the thing that had the most influence on my opinion is the fact that we know next to nothing about her.  Her motives may not be good — they may be worse than anything Salem has planned for all we know.  But we don't know what they are— and that's the point.  


    The word "evil" gets tossed around a lot but few people have ever truly seen it.  Cinder doesn't really qualify — at least with the information we have now — which is basically nothing.


    Corrupt?  Sure.  Morally flexible?  Yes.  Evil?  No.


    Now, as for your question about Tyrian — I don't know if I can honestly answer that because I would require a lot more information about him that what we have now.  As you can tell, I'm a stickler for the details of someone's past.  The condition of someone's sanity is not something that you can switch on & off — it's a long process of recovery.  Also I have to say that he strikes me as more of a sociopath than someone who is simply insane.  So, the short answer, based on current information — is no, I don't believe he could be redeemed because from my observation, it's not insanity that drives him to do what he does.


    The reason I'm standing by Cinder is because there is enough evidence to support the theory. There's also enough evidence to say that I am completely wrong.  Either way I can see it happening as there is a large, over-arcing story being told and we are not privy to all the elements within — but I am eager to see which route they take.

  • ClNDERFALL

    ClNDERFALL FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Fall Maiden of Remnant

    #33486451 - 11 months ago

    I may as well get ahead of this as it is no doubt inevitable.


    With the conclusion of Volume IV — we get one scene with Cinder & it is a dark one.  In Salem's version of the Danger Room, Cinder torches the projection of a helpless Ruby Rose.


    So, she's evil, right?


    No, I still stand by what I said.


    Ruby is — for all intents & purposes — the cause of Cinder's misery.  And yes, she is miserable — she's suffering both physically & mentally.  So it's not all that surprising to see Cinder focus her rage on Ruby — especially under Salem's twisted guidance.

  • DarkTempler7

    DarkTempler7 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33486679 - 11 months ago

    I think there's more to Cinder then we've seen and hopefully next volume elaborated on her backstory. Remember her reaction to Pyrrha's destiny question? She said she does and was not the slightest bit happy about it. And I'm curious if she actually believes everything she was spouting when she hijacked the speakers after Penny was killed. She certainly isn't good, and probably fits the definition of evil, but there might be a reason for her being that way. She could go either way at this point, and more widely praised fiction has given less deserving character redemption, so I could see a culture that accepts Darth Vader's making one for her.

  • ClNDERFALL

    ClNDERFALL FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Fall Maiden of Remnant

    #33486853 - 11 months ago

    In reply to DarkTempler7


    You make an interesting point.  I had to re-watch that scene to be certain but as soon as Pyrrha asks:


    "Do you believe in destiny?"

    Cinder's expression changes from a smirk to a very solemn glare.  I don't believe she's evil, but she most certainly is not good.  And you're right, if we can forgive Darth Vader, we can forgive Cinder.


    But that raises an interesting point.


    Do people hate Cinder because they believe her to be evil or because she is responsible for Penny & Pyrrha?  Surely, there are characters within the world of Remnant who have done far fouler deeds than Cinder & yet — people still love them.


    One example is Neo, everyone's favorite ice cream martial artist.  As of writing this, she has been shown to be more than willing to use her sword-cane on two major characters in lethal fashion — she just never gets the chance to follow through.


    And what of Raven?  She has made her views about survival painfully clear & in case there was any confusion, Qrow laid it out for us with all the tact that we have come to expect:


    "They were killers and thieves."

    And yet she remains a fan favorite.  She has detractors to be certain, but their numbers pale when compared to the sheer amount of vitriol that Cinder receives,  I would love some clarification from Rooster Teeth as to why that question from Pyrrha had such an effect on her.


    I wouldn't hold my breath though.

  • DarkTempler7

    DarkTempler7 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33486957 - 11 months ago

    In reply to Cinder4President


    I'm not sure there's a lot of people that love Raven. At least not after her conversation with Qrow.

  • Blue-Rose-89

    Blue-Rose-89

    #33488346 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WalkingSpirit


    Salem knows where to hit the right buttons on her minions.


    Holding back on your new powers? Remind them of their goal but in a mocking manner.


    Failed a mission? Just tell them you're not angry, just disappointed.


    Want to get them motivated? Get a lackey to create an illusion of the one responsible for their condition and kill them fire power.


    Salem may have been nice to Cinder at the beginning but now that the girl has achieved her goal in her quest for power, Salem is now ready to use Cinder at full force.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33488599 - 11 months ago

    Yes, Cinder's miserable at her current state....one she brought entirely on herself.  I hold no sympathy for a villain who jumped off the Moral Event Horizon a long time ago and did it with a smile on her face.  if there's any one villain that can be compared to Darth Vader, it's Adam, not Cinder.  Vader may have acted selflessly in the defense of his son, but that doesn't change the countless monstrous things he'd done before that....and while we have that perspective to see how Luke would forgive him and mourn his passing, the rest of the galaxy does NOT.  Not even Vader's daughter forgives him, even after forty years, and the line "There's too much Vader in him" says it all.  She refers to her father as Vader, not Anakin.  And the only reason I can make the comparison between Adam and Vader is that unlike Cinder, we have at least one person (Blake) within the setting that claims that he was a better person, but even then, that actually has to be TRUE, and the margin for a believable redemption for Adam is extremely narrow.  In addition to the above, Blake has to genuinely convince him of his bullshit, he pretty much has to die doing something selfless, and in the end, only Blake will mourn him.

    She's done too much damage to be believably portrayed as truly sympathetic.  Salem may be her Emperor Palpatine, but Cinder Fall is no Darth Vader.

    To address your second point in your original post, Yang's shaming was just setup for Pyrrha's, and Penny served well to turn public opinion against Atlas and, when combined with the broadcast right after, sow even more discontent among the crowd.  It likely would have been the same had Penny been a real person and not a robot, as long as Penny was something that was being kept from the people that openign that can of worms was something Cinder could use.  It wasn't really the death or the reveal alone, it was the combination of both that she needed.  To address your third point (the Roman/Cinder comparison), while Roman certainly is a dick, he's also not really on board with the motives for Cinder's plan.  He just wanted to survive, making him more sympathetic than Cinder.

    For a visual reference, I'll post this, a pretty accurate villain tier list, using Gundam villains to illustrate.  For RWBY, Torchwick hovers between the Great and High tiers, Emerald stands firmly at High (and has room to elevate if she starts having second thoughts of following Cinder), Adam is slightly above Mid, but has shades of Great (being strong-armed into helping Cinder), and Cinder, Salem, Tyrian and Mercury bottom out the list at Meh.  If anything, Cinder has been ELEVATED from Shit tier she used to occupy, because we're not really sure of her motives anymore.  Time MIGHT elevate her higher, but not much higher than where she's at now.  Hazel and Watts are unknowns at this time.

    Jgf5U.jpg

  • ClNDERFALL

    ClNDERFALL FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Fall Maiden of Remnant

    #33488768 - 11 months ago

    Okay, this is going to be tricky & I'm certain I'll make a few mistakes as I am not up to date with my Gundam villains — however, seeing Treize Khushrenada at the top is rather amusing.  Gundam Wing aired it's final episode twenty years ago & I am still trying to figure out what his plans were.  As for Dekim Barton — reluctant is not how I would describe him.


    — but we're here about RWBY.  


    Cinder's motives have never been clear — not once.  There is speculation but we know nothing of her past or her true motivations.  We know more about Adam Taurus from the Black trailer than we do about Cinder after four full volumes.


    Allow me to be direct — Adam is not a good person.  And I'm not just saying that because he mutilated Yang.


    He's egotistical, abusive & possessive.  He taunts Blake by promising to destroy everything she loves & has no problems with stabbing her in the side or even decapitating her.  Everything is about him — his feelings, his goals & his needs.  He is rarely able to see past himself & how his actions hurt others & the few times that he does look past his self-imposed veil — it is about how other people's suffering is a burden to him.


    "Why must you hurt me, Blake?"

    I personally can think of several reasons why — but that's me.


    Back to Cinder —


    No villain ever receives forgiveness for everything — even if they genuinely deserve that forgiveness.  Them's the breaks.  Now, I could be completely wrong about Cinder — and I have stated that many times.  If she turns out to be evil incarnate — so be it.  I'm sure she could give Salem a run for her money if that's the way the series goes.  On the other hand, there is still enough evidence to suggest that evil is not in her nature.  And while she may not be the purest soul in the world — she is a far cry from being the worst.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33488803 - 11 months ago

    In reply to Cinder4President

    Ok.  First, I used the Gundam characters as illustration, and the text is the most important thing there.  Nice try in derailing that.  Second, Adam has one thing going that Cinder does NOT: someone to vouch for a time when they were better people.  And even then, I DO state that that has to actually be TRUE.  Otherwise, I'm right there with you, that Adam's not redeemable.  Yes, he's not a good person NOW.  And we DO have motive for her actions.  She wants power, and that's it.

    You'll also note that I didn't put Adam much higher than Cinder.  However, we have seen nothing to indicate that she should be put any high than the Meh tier.  Now, if we had a separate series on Adam, we'd likely see his involvement with the White Fang, his time with Blake, and his slow and eventual degradation.  These are why I put him where I did, because we know certain parts of his history.  Your assessment essentially ignored that.

  • DarkTempler7

    DarkTempler7 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33488804 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight


    I compared Cinder to Vader more to point out that redemption stories are almost always stupid and poorly handled. The only one I've ever seen that's even half believable was Zuko, and that was only because he was barely a villain to begin with. And while we know Cinder wants power, we've got no context for why or how Salem found her. So I'd say that it's a little early to call her one or the other just yet. I'm hoping next season gives some context for her and Salem's other lackeys. 

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33488831 - 11 months ago

    In reply to DarkTempler7

    Yeah, Zuko essentially started out as a Great Tier villain and slowly evolved into a hero.  It's probably better to call it an Antagonist Tier List.

  • DarkTempler7

    DarkTempler7 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33488846 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    True, but I was referring to the fact that he didn't do much as a villain. And I looked at the chart again, I'd say Salem, based on what little we've seen, might be a high tier and I think Mercury is being set up to be mid at the very least. And like I said, it's probably better to wait for some context on Cinder's actions before passing judgement, and given her reaction to Pyhrra's destiny question it wouldn't shock me if she's mid or high.

  • ClNDERFALL

    ClNDERFALL FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Fall Maiden of Remnant

    #33488852 - 11 months ago

    I wasn't trying to derail anything.  I agree I was being a smart ass though — my apologies.


    You're right, Cinder does want power.  We are told as much in Volume IV by Salem herself.  But that still begs the question — why does she want power?  I completely agree she wanted power — but why?  What for?  The reason for why she wants power is the reason for her being here.  Until we know the answer to that, all we can do is speculate.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33488858 - 11 months ago

    In reply to DarkTempler7

    He was still in opposition to the heroes, so we have to classify him as an antagonist for that time.  Hell, if we're going to use Avatar characters, Varrick and President Reiko from the Korra series are considered antagonists for a while.  The key is finding out WHY they are in opposition to the main cast.  They might be classic villains, they might simply be well-meaning people with different ideologies.

    I assume you're referring to Salem as far as her being a Grimm?  Possible.  Merc only seems to be there for the fun, which is why I put him where I did.  All of my assertions are based on what we have right now.  They may change.

    In the end, I can't see any reason why I should feel any sort of sympathy for Cinder, and I never will. She's done far too much damage and enjoyed all of it. To be honest, I don't feel any sympathy for Adam, either.  However, I still have to consider what has been said of him by Blake as well as his heavy affiliation with the White Fang.  That is why I both ranked him as low as I did, and made the claim that he IS redeemable but only under very specific conditions.  That's why I like this list: my personal feelings don't actually matter, just the analysis of their motives and affiliations do.

  • DarkTempler7

    DarkTempler7 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33488892 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight


    I'm not disagreeing with you on any of those points except Merc. He strikes me as a mercenary character, meaning he considered Beacon to be a job and is in over his head now, and Salem may be a Grimm, she might be something worse, but I think it's clear that evil's pretty much in her nature, if she even considers herself to be such. And as I said, I'm waiting to see more backstory on Cinder before passing judgement on her, though I don't like redemption stories as a whole.

  • ClNDERFALL

    ClNDERFALL FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Fall Maiden of Remnant

    #33488924 - 11 months ago

    Never say never.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33488938 - 11 months ago

    In reply to Cinder4President

    I would let her spill her guts about her backstory and it could be the most sympathetic thing ever, and all I'd do is put a blade in her stomach, tell her it doesn't make a difference, put two bullets in her eyes, and leave her for the Grimm.  Whether or not I have any sympathy for Cinder is based on how I feel.  Where I ranked her on the tier list is impartial.  She could have been part of the Elder God tier, and I would hold no sympathy for her.  This is not a character that gets a happy ending.  This is not a character that gets to escape consequence.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33489038 - 11 months ago

    I should correct myself: Whether or not I sympathize with an antagonist will be heavily influenced by the other characters.  Cinder could have the most horrific, gut-wrenching, tear-jerking backstory in fiction.  It still doesn't negate what she's done, and I highly doubt that the main characters would care one whit about it.  So if THEY don't sympathize with her, then I won't.  That being said, it still has to be believable.  Jaune seeing Cinder as anything but a monster is out of the question.