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RWBY Volume 5: In-Depth Discussion/Speculation/Spoilers (All Things Must Die {FINALE})

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  • mattcjx

    mattcjx FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33704896 - 1 week ago

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    I mean, I'm very sure the Queen Lancer Weiss fought against did more damage than a gunshot could. Plus, his aura would have been weakened after the gunshot which may have helped the Lancer pierce him

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33704904 - 1 week ago

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    Qrow semblance doesnt do that. When he doesnt activate it, it randomly spikes on but costs no Aura. But he can CHOOSE to amplify it which does cost Aura they said that in the AMA.


    No shirt damage is most likely an editing mistake which does happen and has happened since the first trailer with Weiss.


    All rounds are Dust based and dont seem to work like our bullets. Cinder for example even before she was a maiden and was instead whatever the original idea was able to deflect Ruby's Sniper rifle rounds with no issue.

    So Most likely RWBY rounds dont work in the same way ours do. Most likely its a packet of Dust launched which impacts and then explodes.

    In short Bullets be Wack and have since day one.


    Trust me in combat its actually pretty easy to get distracted or tunnel visioned its why the buddy system exists in so many formats for that very reason.

    So I dont see it as poor writing myself just Hazel is presented as being able to be distracted which to be fair Adam huge crowd of Faunus and the POLICE being there is a lot to take in and process so its easy to see WHY he would get distracted.


    Eh as someone who has dealt with it and knows people who deal with it a lot until it gets to the point they cant handle it you wouldnt even realize at times.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33704905 - 1 week ago

    In reply to mattcjx

    Naw just someone who had way too many surgeries at a young age.


    More then likely with Em and Merc their job was to keep the others at bay once the task switch from killing them to get the relic. Also I think Cinder told them she wanted to kill Ruby personally hence why Em didnt finish her off.

  • lena27

    lena27

    #33704913 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Salem said to keep Ruby alive, that's the order Cinder passed onto Emerald and Mercury.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33704916 - 1 week ago

    In reply to lena27

    She was giving that order for Cinder.

    Cinder raises a finger. Emerald fails to notice this gesture for a moment.

    Emerald: Oh!

    Emerald leans in to hear her.

    Cinder rasps into her ear. Emerald straightens.

    Salem: Speak, child.

    Emerald: She wants to know… (hesitates) What about the girl?

    Watts: (scoffs) What about her? Seems to me that this is Cinder's problem, not ours.

    Cinder slams her fist onto the table and glares at Watts, who grins at her.

    Salem: That's enough. Tyrian?

    Tyrian: Yes, my lady?

    Salem: Spring can wait. Find the girl that did this to Cinder.

    Tyrian giggles elatedly and claps.

    Salem: And bring her to me.


    Its clear Ruby isnt being kept alive for Salem its because Cinder wants to kill her and Salem is willing to indulge Cinder in that Vendetta.


    EDIT

    Watts even calls her on it in vol 5

    Watts: Wait. Don't think I don't see what you're after. If this falls to pieces over your grudge with a child, I will not be taking the blame.

  • mattcjx

    mattcjx FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33704919 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    ahh yeah true

  • Dinobot01

    Dinobot01

    #33704922 - 1 week ago

    I have a question I've been asking since Volume 1. If Jaune wanted to be a Huntsmen so badly, why didn't he go to combat school and learn to fight like everyone else? That way he wouldn't have had to use fake transcripts to get into Beacon

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33704929 - 1 week ago

    In reply to Dinobot01

    No one has answered because we dont know yet but based on some stuff we might actually find out soon as they hinted we might see the Arc family soonish.

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33704935 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    That silly then, that it doesn't cost aura passively, because it's always doing something passively. Regardless of his ability to control it, the fact is that it has been implied that it is doing something, and there should be some fuel for that doing. Really, I would just credit that to bad semblance design as something as nebulous luck really shouldn't be a power considering all other semblances appear to have somewhat well-defined physical effects. 


    I don't see how the police and old WF beating up Adam are a lot to take in, especially at that point which has been minutes since they appeared, meaning he had ample time to process the fact that the mooks he didn't care for were getting beat and move back to the problem at hand. I argue that bad writing still exists, either because they hyped up the competence of Salem's allies too much, or as I've been saying, because they handed them the idiot ball because they couldn't realistically have had Ozpin's team win otherwise. The reason why I didn't really see Hazel getting over-focused on the WF's issue is because it wasn't portrayed as relevant enough to him for him to care and furthermore, as I said, he already had a significant amount of time to process it all, the entire period of old WF showing up and Blake talking to Adam. 

    Either way, regardless of how competent they implied characters to be compared to how competent they showed them to be, I doubt our discussion will reach much of a conclusion since it seems likely that you like the show significantly more than me and are more lenient towards what I consider to be flaws.

     

    I've been meaning to ask something else. Has it been confirmed that just having aura up lowers the recharge rate, or in any draws upon the total amount of aura available? I'm asking because my interpretation has been that the only downside to just having aura up is the mental concentration, not that you would worry about it hampering your semblance usage. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33704941 - 1 week ago

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    Its not though it only does something when it Spikes otherwise its not active. Its jsut when it SPIKES is when it activates but he has no real control over that. They said that during the AMA.

    And probably when it spikes it does use Aura but only then.


    You do realize the plan was to do this nice and quiet right? Get in get the Relic kill the students and then let the WF blow it up.

    So YES that is a lot to take in as the whole plan is now in ruins. Hazel has to figure okay Adam is done for how does this effect our side we have Cinder in the Vault Ozpin is here and I would REALLY like to kill him etc.

    So yes its actually a lot to take in especially since Hazel is also probably coming off a battle high. Something people who fight have to deal with is when the fight or flight chemicals start coming down our brains need time to switch gears.


    Aura up and semblance both use the same power source the fuel we call Aura. So yes you would worry about it because using Semblance drains aura and that means less aura to protect you. Same goes for taking hits it drains your aura which might mean you cant use Semblance

    its all the same.

    While we havent been told it hampers it there is several implications that it does.

    Glynda for example told Jaune they need to watch their Aura amount during battle we also see Aura meters in battle and they go down not up.

    So for most people recharging in the middle of battle probably isnt a thing and its something unique to Hazel or just a rare trait.


    And no its not a case of me being more lenient towards RWBY its more of a case of me listening to what they have said. Many of the things you bring up as bad writing are actually addressed or shown not to be the case.

    I will be honest you come across as VERY nitpicking over this and I am not trying to be rude here just so we are clear.

    It feels like you are coming down TOO harshly on them and so what is me going hey here is a basic thing or what they said when asked question looks too lenient when in reality its not.

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33704954 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Yes, and you're proving my point. I don't think the in-show explanations adequately justify what happens. You do, and like it or not, you are rationalizing unexplained details in the show, rationalizations which I don't think is adequate. I think you're being too lenient, you think I'm too harsh. It doesn't really matter, which is why I've somewhat avoided discussion with you because the gulf of our opinions regarding the show is too wide for us to reach anything approaching a conclusion. 

    I've observed in the past that the more someone likes a show, the easier they find it to justify flaws in it. This is just another example of that. The show has disengaged me, so I look at what disengaged me, and I see countless flaws which add up to what I consider to be a poorly written narrative, with inconsistencies and characters being forced along actions simply to suit the end the writers want. You don't see that, likely because you weren't disengaged by the plot. That's fine. The point of the show is to entertain, whether you are being entertained by finding it to be well done and enjoyable to watch or whether you are being entertained by using it as an example of poorly paced narrative is up to you. It's your time to spend, just like it's mine to spend and then write what I think are justified criticisms of it. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33704964 - 1 week ago

    In reply to spoolofwhool

    No that isnt proving your point at all. Because most of these are in fact from the creators themselves or other parts of the show.

    That isnt rationalization its actually following the Lore of the series.

    Almost ALL of what I have said is stuff directly stated by the show or the creators which is why I am not proving your point or being too lenient.


    No I dont see that because that isnt what they are doing.

    You see what you are doing is in fact JUSTIFYING why people can like it when you dont.

    That we are engaged so we dont see it or we are entertained so we excuse it.

    Instead of maybe the "Justified criticism" you see are not justified and are in fact you going too harsh.


    You dont like RWBY any more that is fine but the minute you use rationalizations to counter someone or say they are too engaged to see flaws or issues you are in fact taking away agency from others and to your demerit.


    I see Flaws in RWBY they just arent the flaws YOU see.

    That doesnt make it rationalizations or any other trite thing you want to call it.

    its called difference of opinion. 

    So just because I dont agree with what you think are flaws in no way works like you seem to think it does.


    If your argument at all requires the use of well you are engaged so you are willing to forgive flaws then you are wrong. Because it presents the idea someone cant enjoy the series and cant find flaws.

    They are not mutually exclusive and the fact you pulled it out shows issues on your side.


    Because it means when I discuss anything with you you are going to label what I say as rationalizations instead of what is said and what I think. That devalues the arguments I present solely based on something that is you randomly assigning it solely because I disagree with you.


    Its okay not to be convinced its not okay to do what you just did.


    Its trite and its garbage in the extreme.


    Good Day Sir I am done with this discussion as you will label what I have to say as rationalizations to excuse flaws instead of me presenting Facts and Lore from the show and creators plus what I think.

    And that is not okay.

  • lena27

    lena27

    #33704985 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    You're forgetting about the other conversation Salem and Cinder had later. 

    Cinder: ... working with bandits? Keeping Ruby alive?! Why bother when we can take what we want by force.

    Salem: never underestimate the usefulness of others Cinder. Take Leonardo...


    That's about how it went. And it indicates that Salem wants to use Ruby, not throw her to Cinder for the sake of Cinder's vengeance

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33704986 - 1 week ago

    In reply to lena27

    I HAD forgotten about that.

    Hmmm its odd because originally that scene the one I refered to does come across like Ruby is being brought along so Cinder can kill her.

    But this scene makes it more likely Cinder doesnt care so long as Ruby is dead which Salem wants her alive.


    Though its clear in the Case of Ruby Cinder might be willing to go against Salem as Watts does call her on the reasoning.


    So there might be 2 agendas here.

    What Salem wants which needs Ruby alive

    What Cinder wants which means Ruby dead.


    hmmm.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33704989 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Ummmm....how many people have we talked to in the past two years were bitching us out because we "didn't see the tragedy", or some other line like that?  Those people were definitely too engaged to see the flaws.  Hell, how many of those posters contribute to the RWBY Discussion thread?  I could point out one or two right now.

    Hell, I've talked to people in person at conventions that flat-out say that they're entertained so they don't really care if there are flaws.

    And again, we are taking the word of the creators at face value...why?  I will once again point out that they fully intended to lie to us about magic not existing in RWBY, which is a key set-piece of their setting, so why would I believe them about any stated rules of Aura, especially since they've done a shit-job of setting down those rules in the first place?  Once again, if Aura needing to be activated was always a thing, then Jaune's fucked from Initiation all the way to the end of Jaundice.  Yes, I remember that you said a bunch about how Pyrrha's unlocking technique was, according to the writers, an emergency move, but how that differs from any standard method, which we know none, we have no objective idea.  Your suppositions about his Aura being in an auto-protect mode are possible, but there is nothing to actually support that.  Moreover, Jaune, thanks to his displayed actions during Jaundice, would not have accepted any help, which means that he would not know how to activate Aura to the point of it being second nature.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33704991 - 1 week ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    Except I dont take that stance and wont.

    I may disagree with them but I dont say well you liked the show so you cant see the flaws.

    People may take that stance but I dont and I dont assume others do.

    It devalues everyone both sides.

    If someone wants to take that stance they can and that is their issue but I dont and to be accussed of it is not okay. 

    It makes it so that no matter what I say no matter what I show I am ALWAYS being held to that level and for no other reason then because someone else wants to hold me to that.

    Not because of what I have said or expressed but because someone else sees me discussing and looking at what is said and sees it as me rationalizing everything instead of me looking understanding and saying you know maybe this.

    It automaticaly devalues ANY discussion I might have as it assumes I am making excuses instead of seeing evidence to back up what is being presented.


    I am not taking them at face value but I am pointing out what they said. As I cant take the stance they lie to us about everything.

    I will hold they might lie about SOME things but not everything as that doesnt make sense.


    As for Jaune no that actually isnt correct. While Jaune wouldnt know how to use it to the point of second nature that doesnt mean Jaune cant call up his aura.

    He is showed struggling with Aura when facing Cardin. So Jaune might be able to call up Aura but he is not a master of it.

    And that is the key point I say Jaune after Pyrrha unlocked it CAN call up his aura but its not second nature.


    Jaune IS shown struggling with Aura in the show.

  • ZanyGamer196

    ZanyGamer196 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33705014 - 1 week ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

     Wow, if that's the direction that CRWBY intended to take Ozpin and his cohorts then they definitely succeeded.  And yet, considering they think they're the only ones who can save Remnant, it's not surprising that they hold nothing sacred, except for Ozpin of course.  Bravo, WrightKnight, excellent insight into Ozpin's inner circle.


    In reply to WrightKnight

     I wouldn't entirely agree on this, if Yang was fully sold on Ozpin's rhetoric she wouldn't have hesitated to attack Raven for "betraying humanity" and all that.  Instead, she tries to get some answers out of her instead.  And though her opinion of Raven hasn't really changed, notice how she didn't tell Qrow that Raven was the Spring Maiden, so there's still that doubt about him and Ozpin having all the answers to Remnant's problems, which they clearly don't.


    In reply to WrightKnight

     Wow, are you talking about Soarel?  Because that sounds like something he'd say, and I know he's a major Cinder fanboy.  He's as blind to Cinder's flaws as Ozpin's lieutenants are to his, it's quite frightening, actually.


    In reply to revanninja

     Hmm, maybe, sounds like Cinder (provided she's still alive) is getting a bit too big for her britches.  Though I'm certain Salem will put her foot down and remind Cinder just who is in control.  We could be seeing this in Volume 6 when Salem calls her next council meeting, definitely won't be pleasant, that's for sure.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33705017 - 1 week ago

    In reply to ZanyGamer196

    I was referring to CINDERFALL as the "Cinder fanboy".  That being said, Sorael is a VERY close second, being the massive Salem fanboy.  As far as my analysis to the first post you responded to, I was also looking at it from Pyrrha's perspective.  Yes, we have our own perspective as the audience, but at that point in time, Pyrrha's perspective and the audience's are the same, in terms of the knowledge we are getting from it.  You know damn well that she's thinking of that stuff, too.  And as far as Blake "not getting the hint that Ozpin knows"....well, A) she's a smart girl, and B) she's more than a bit paranoid.  Even if she didn't catch it, you know she suspects.

  • mattcjx

    mattcjx FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33705043 - 1 week ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    I mean, its not exactly wrong to be flat out entertained by a show so......


    While I get we shouldn't take everything they say at face value, that doesn't really mean everything they say is a lie. So I feel the best cause of action is to take what they say with a pinch of salt, work it in and see if it makes sense. If something in the future comes up which contradicts it, then we can point that out after. 


    Also I feel the magic thing was less of them intending to lie than just being unsure when they were first asked the question. Even in the interview with Monty he was dodging the question more than giving us explicit answers as to whether it exists


    In reply to spoolofwhool

    Just a question, how much do you require for a show to explain? Because for most shows, there are stuff that are explained immediately and directly, some explained through bits and pieces and some give you different hints which viewers can build up themselves to understand. All can work


    So yeah at what stage do you think an in-show-justification is enough to satisfy you? I'm not gonna argue with you on this because I think this is solely a matter of preferences which we may disagree on but no point arguing over



  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33705075 - 1 week ago

    In reply to mattcjx

    Whatever point I think is enough to satisfy me that the justifications presented are adequate enough to explain the events which occurred. No writer can explain every single point in their works, obviously, which is why we rationalize the gaps which form, using what justifications have been presented to us in the show to support that justification. That's how we sleep well at night, content that the show is consistent and actions well-supported. However, there will be points where the framework of justification presented by the show cannot support what I consider to be reasonable rationalization, at which point I consider the why of the event in question to be contrived. 


    The discussion I just had regarding Hazel is one such point. I feel like whatever slight justifications they have presented for what occurred are insufficient to form a meaningful rationalization of the events which occurred, so the event feels contrived to me. Others have clearly don't feel the same way as me, their rationalizations are solid, so the event is solid. That's up to them.


    The benchmark is fluid, and depends strongly on my liking of the show. No matter how much someone may protest it, I've found that you're far more likely to accept flaws in the show if you like it. I know for a fact that I do, so for shows where I'm engaged, interested, and am overall liking the show, I will be more forgiving of flaws, and be able to rationalize perceived flaws more easily, compared to shows which have disengaged me. This makes sense as if you enjoy it, you don't care as much about how it could be better, unlike if you don't enjoy it, in which case you would want it to be better so you could enjoy it.


    At the end of the day, I just feel like Rwby has repeatedly failed to present sufficient justifications for me to rationalize events which occurred, so parts of the story come off as contrived. If you don't feel that way, that sufficient justification have been presented, then keep on enjoying it, but don't pretend you're not rationalizing anything, because the show doesn't explain everything.

  • FettucCR

    FettucCR

    #33705076 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    In reply to lena27

    It seems to me that Salem is willing to help Cinder grow and become more and more powerful, and the she will have a mighty minion. But for some reason, Cinder strikes me as the type of person who would cross her boss, in order to become the boss herself. So long, whatever goal Cinder has, including her revenge on Ruby, is subject to Salem's plan. How long will that be so, that's what I want to see.


    In reply to WrightKnight

    As with any work of fiction, there are flaws in RWBY that we have to ignore, in order to enjoy the show. But going as far as pretending the show is perfect, that it has no flaws, and ignoring them when someone points them out... That's too much. And it has shown some major ones.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33705084 - 1 week ago

    In reply to FettucCR

    I agree Cinder comes off as greedy and she does have a hint of star scream.


    The Major issue with Flaws is many of the flaws are not flaws but people's personal feelings. My argument with Spool is such an example as I see what is presented in the show plus what the creators say on hazel and Aura in general makes enough sense that it has a sound structure. Spool feels differently and sees it as rationalization instead of just following the laid out evidence. 

    I 100% disagree with him on that but that is his personal feelings on the matter.

    Its just like his personal Feelings that if someone enjoys or dislikes a work means you are more willing to accept the ideas if you like it and less if you dislike I disagree with.

    I have seen MANY shows and Books I dont like but agree with the Ideas and lines of evidence presented. And the opposite shows I have liked but the concepts dont make sense. IE Tenchi love the series and all the things but GOOD GOD does the logic on that show not make any sense.

    To me they arent linked at all. Liking something and the evidence and framework of the show are not hand in hand at all. They can be separate.


    One of the Major issues with Flaws is the personal viewpoint. We all have different views and beliefs on how things work which influence us and our understanding. And sometimes those views can leave us at an impasse and break us from the work.


    A good example of this is from Fatal Frame 1. In it one character had their Mothers name and for western audiences it was a break as that family line was the major point of a story arc inside the game.

    What was at fault was a lack of knowledge as its not uncommon in Japan to take your Wife's Family name especially if she was from a higher station then you.


    Another example is From naruto. Sakura was pinned to a tree by Garaa and when asked by the Toad Boss Summon he relation to Naruto the Boss's son held up his pinkie finger.

    This doesnt make sense outside of Japan but in Japan it makes sense as the red strings of fate that are tying soul mates together is on the Pinkie Finger. So it was basically saying she was his soul mate or lover with that.


    Now my examples are small things but if it builds enough it can take someone out of the work or shift their understanding of what is being said especially if you already have feelings on the subject.


    A good example on that in RWBY is Jaune where some gained a negative view of him in Vol 1 and every interaction is seen in a negative light to the point Miles has been badgered about Jaune being a self insert that he doesnt write Jaune's scenes.


    So Flaws arent always Flaws but rather Personal feelings and viewpoints which cause the problem.


    That Said YES there is in facts real Flaws that arent made by Personal feelings and Yes RWBY does in fact have them.

  • user-572df514355fe

    user-572df514355fe

    #33705118 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja Think they could answer the flaw that is Adam Taurus and where the hell they were going with him? Cause it looks like they pulled a few too many left turns and then a few rights  and some more lefts and then got lost if you get what i'm saying.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33705124 - 1 week ago

    In reply to user-572df514355fe

    The thing with Adam is I dont think we have all the clues yet.

    Blake called him Spite and has said he wants to hurt humans for what they did.

    Adam: (enraged) I am making humanity pay for WHAT THEY’VE DONE!!

    The way he says that it sounds personal.


    Add in I dont think they swept the WF yet and instead what Blake said that they wont follow him anymore is going to turn out not to be true.


    I think part of the point of WF is they want to show the difference between Valid disagreement of treatment and ones who go too far and make it circle back into racism.


    And I think Adam is going to be the figurehead for that.

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33705153 - 1 week ago

    In reply to user-572df514355fe

    Yeah, they could've and should've tied it up a lot neater and ended the WF this volume altogether. It's fine for Adam to be by himself and maybe keep working for Salem, but we don't really need the WF mooks anymore. 

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