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Ozpin and Salem. (Spoilers) *UPDATE 3* WITH VIDEO

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  • InsaneAlphaBeta

    InsaneAlphaBeta

    #33674964 - 1 month ago

    HUGE thanks to @Calxiyn for making a video for those who dont wanna read all this! though i added a third update at the bottom!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...


    So before i start i know, most of this i already said in the RWBY Volume 5: In-Depth Discussion/Speculation/Spoilers thread, But honestly, i feel like the topic of Ozpin and Salem is one that is large enough to warrant a thread dedicated to it.


    And ofcorse, spoilers if your not caught up on the latest chapters. And warning, wall of text/really large post inbound. I had a lot on my mind it would seem lol. 


    As of late ive been re-watching the previous chapters and volumes, and ive been picking up a lot of interesting information it seems people have overlooked, and honestly, its pretty significant. Specifically information on Ozpin.


    So now i will post what i noticed Yesterday, and what i noticed today, for those who didn't see my previous posts.


    Here is what i noticed Yesterday. Back in Chapter 6 of Volume 3. Fall, Ozpin asks Pyrrha what her favorite fairytale is, the first one she says is "The Tale of the Two Brothers" No doubt about the two gods. And also Ozpin said "Would you believe me if i told you that one has been around since i was a boy?" when talking about the story of the seasons. Then not long after that, Glenda said that the maidens have been around for thousands of years. Ozpin said in Chapter 3 of Volume 5 Unforeseen Complications, that he's been around for thousands of years. Which would indicate that he was around during that time.


    But then there is what i realized and discovered today. In chapter 8 of Volume 4, A Much Needed Talk, Qrow says this.


    Ren: But... what does that have to do with us? 

    Qrow: Well, that's the kicker. See, the four gifts to mankind - knowledge, creation, destruction and choice - aren't just metaphorical. Each of them exists in a physical form, left behind by the gods before they abandoned Remnant.

    .

    And in Chapter 3 of Volume 5, Unforeseen Complications, Ozpin says this,


    Ozpin: I am the combination of countless men who’ve spent their lives trying to protect the people of Remnant. With every rebirth, my soul is eventually merged with another and I am changed, but my memories stay with me. This curse was bestowed upon me by the gods because i failed to stop Salem in the past.


    The curse MUST have been bestowed upon him by the gods BEFORE they abandoned Remnant. Otherwise how could they? (More importantly, if they abandoned Remnant, which is a discussion all its own, they would have no reason to care what happens after they abandoned it.) Which would mean Ozpin and Salem have been around i dare say a lot longer then thousands of years.


    So yeah that's what i posted in that thread and now here. Thus far from watching the older episodes and volumes ive discovered those bits of information. Its honestly very interesting. Ozpin seems to have been around even longer then he said, and Salem has been around just as long. If I'm interpreting this information correctly, Ozpin and Salem were both alive before the two gods abandoned Remnant, which must have been much more then just thousands of years, maybe tens of thousands, who knows how long, but they have existed for a very long time.


    And in that case, should all of that be as true as it seems, they could have met the two gods, they were there when the relics were created, they were there when the gods abandoned Remnant. And if that is also true and they both were true alive all the way back then, then there is a really solid chance Ozpin really was the warrior king of Vale, and the Wizard from the story of the seasons as people have suspected.


    And yes, this is all assuming everything Ozpin has said is true, but thus far he hasn't given us a reason not to believe him, at least not yet, despite the alleged *truth* Raven will tell Yang and Weiss, which we have no idea if she is just gonna tell them what we already know, bringing them up to speed, or telling us information about Ozpin we dont yet know about, i doubt it will be anything that will turn him into a liar. As this information ive discovered isn't relating to him being good or bad, which is a topic all its own, this is just in relation to how long him and Salem have actually been around, and the possible future and past implications of that. Besides the bit of him possibly being the warrior king and wizard. (Which has been confirmed!)


    So what do you all think of this? and be sure to mention any thoughts you have and details you noticed aswell! Like i said before i think the topic of Ozpin and Salem is one that will continue to become more and more important as the series goes on. and i will likely Update this original post with any new things i find. After finding interesting information two days in a row, i will definitely be searching even more now.


    UPDATE BELOW


    Ya know what's funny? As much as Ozpin hasn't given us a reason not to believe him, Salem hasn't given us a reason not be believe her either. Just because she is supposed to be the *villain* does not mean she is a liar.


    And now ive noticed


    Salem: So you may prepare your guardians, build your monuments to a so-called "free world", but take heed... there will be no victory in strength.


    Ozpin: But perhaps victory is in the simpler things "that you've long forgotten." Things that require a smaller, more honest soul.


    That is starting to make me think they were not always enemies, something must have happened between then that caused this to unfold, and it must have been countless years ago.


    Another thing worth noting. ozpin said the curse was bestowed upon him by the gods for failing to stop Salem in the past....but what did Salem try to do that would cause both the gods to curse Ozpin for failing to stop her. Whatever it was she did, she succeeded, but Ozpin was cursed for failing in stopping her...but whatever it is she did, she wasn't cursed?


    If Salem wasn't cursed yet ozpin was, what does that say about what happened between the two? and how has Salem lived for so long if she wasn't given the same curse? We know she's human, or part of humanity because in the intro she says this.


    Salem: Legends. Stories scattered through time. *Mankind has grown quite fond of recounting the exploits of heroes and villains, forgetting so easily that 'we' are remnants, byproducts, of a forgotten past.*


    So, we know she is human, as she hasn't given us a reason not to believe her, same as Ozpin.
    So now the big questions are. How does Salem and Ozpins past fit in the timeline? what exactly is the timeline of events? what happened between them to cause them to become enemies? And what did Salem do that resulted in the two gods cursing Ozpin for failing to stop her?


    UPDATE 2


    So after the most recent episode, its revealed that Ozpin gave Raven and Qrow the ability to become birds, while this isn't exactly bad, its not good either. And it begs the question what else has Ozpin done. Another revelation made recently is Sacrifice is clearly Ravens theme now. Rather then Cinders. So I'm curious now about those implications.


    UPDATE 3


    So, Ozpin has infact confirmed he was the wizard! Which adds even more to all the information that's been gathered thus far. We can safely guess Salem was and maybe is still human, they both were around during the time that the gods were on remnant before they left. We can safely guess Ozpin was definitely the warrior king of vale. We know now he was the Wizard. And both haven't given us a reason not to trust them. The question of why did the gods curse Ozpin for failing to stop Salem, and not Salem, for doing whatever it is she did remains. We dont know why they abandoned remnant and where they are now. And finally. We know Ozpin turned Qrow and Raven into their respective birds.


    Should i make any new connections or discoveries i will update this thread and other places! :D

  • hz9a8du

    hz9a8du

    #33674993 - 1 month ago

    sgsg

  • InsaneAlphaBeta

    InsaneAlphaBeta

    #33674995 - 1 month ago

    In reply to hz9a8du

    sgsg

    sgsg?

  • MissVanity

    MissVanity

    #33675001 - 1 month ago

    Wow! That is really interesting. Great job! I never thought about the gods before, this is actually mind blowing. Thank you for posting.

  • InsaneAlphaBeta

    InsaneAlphaBeta

    #33675115 - 1 month ago

    In reply to MissVanity

    I'm glad :)


    I'm still searching to find out more but thus far i haven't.


    I'm starting to think that the talk with Raven and Ozpin wont just be what we already know, i feel like it will be what we already know, and then more details we dont know yet that might either be good, or bad, or just be general information. I'm sticking to my original "It wont be anything that turns him into a liar" thoughts though.

  • iceym-95

    iceym-95 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33675385 - 1 month ago

    Very interesting. Though I'm not sure who to trust in the show though. Ozpin seems like the good guy but then again he could be deceiving the main protagonists. Salem seems all evil but she seems like she could be the unsaid hero. Whatever Raven has to say I hope makes the decision easier. 

  • InsaneAlphaBeta

    InsaneAlphaBeta

    #33675455 - 1 month ago

    In reply to iceym-95


    That's the thing though, nether of them have given us a reason not to trust them or the things they say. But it doesn't help Oz that Salem's theme Divide and Cinders theme Sacrifice make him seem like a bad guy.

  • RedST

    RedST

    #33675736 - 1 month ago

    Honestly, I think that Salem was never human to begin with, but is actually the First Grimm created by the God of Darkness. I think we all know by now that Salem quite obviously wants to annihilate mankind, and I think that I discovered her motivation.


    So, in Volume 4, they explained that the Grimm were created by the God of Darkness, long before the Brothers created Mankind. This means that Grimm were originally the dominant species of Remnant, until Humans and Faunus came along. I believe that Salem wants to destroy mankind simply because she doesn't want the Grimm to go extinct, because she believes that the Grimm are supposed to be the ones to persevere, and she felt betrayed by the fact that the Brothers created Humans and Faunus in order to exterminate the mistakes created by the God of Darkness. So if we look at it this way, the Grimm aren't evil creatures of mass destruction, instead they're victims who had their title as the dominant species taken away by another species hellbent on exterminating what is believed to be a mistake of the Gods. Salem could be more of a morally grey villain than we thought, only existing and surviving throughout the countless years just to preserve her own dying breed from people who view them as mindless, inferior creatures.

  • howl4howells

    howl4howells

    #33675824 - 1 month ago

    Interesting do you know if anyone has tried to piece together a graph of the Remnant time line.

  • InsaneAlphaBeta

    InsaneAlphaBeta

    #33677963 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to RedST

    Honestly, I think that Salem was never human to begin with, but is actually the First Grimm created by the God of Darkness. I think we all know by now that Salem quite obviously wants to annihilate mankind, and I think that I discovered her motivation.




    So, in Volume 4, they explained that the Grimm were created by the God of Darkness, long before the Brothers created Mankind. This means that Grimm were originally the dominant species of Remnant, until Humans and Faunus came along. I believe that Salem wants to destroy mankind simply because she doesn't want the Grimm to go extinct, because she believes that the Grimm are supposed to be the ones to persevere, and she felt betrayed by the fact that the Brothers created Humans and Faunus in order to exterminate the mistakes created by the God of Darkness. So if we look at it this way, the Grimm aren't evil creatures of mass destruction, instead they're victims who had their title as the dominant species taken away by another species hellbent on exterminating what is believed to be a mistake of the Gods. Salem could be more of a morally grey villain than we thought, only existing and surviving throughout the countless years just to preserve her own dying breed from people who view them as mindless, inferior creatures.


    An interesting theory. One that certainly would give Salem a motive, and a good one. But it doesnt explain why the gods punished Ozpin, and not Salem for failing to stop her in whatever it is she did. Yet didn't punish her for doing whatever it is she did. Which is also confusing.


    The one big counter argument though to her not being human is her line in the intro. 

    Salem: Legends. Stories scattered through time. *Mankind has grown quite fond of recounting the exploits of heroes and villains, forgetting so easily that 'we' are remnants, byproducts, of a forgotten past.*


    In reply to howl4howells

    Interesting do you know if anyone has tried to piece together a graph of the Remnant time line.

    Sorry for the Late response, i have no idea. But i think at the very least we can assume Ozpin and Salem were there before the gods left remnant.

  • RedST

    RedST

    #33678147 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to InsaneAlphaBeta


    I think that the Gods couldn't punish Salem in the first place, because they already gave up their godly powers when they bestowed the four relics upon mankind. Without the relics, they couldn't touch Salem, so instead they used whatever power they had left to turn Ozpin into an immortal supersoldier, and briefly afterwards abandoned the planet, leaving mankind to fend for themselves against the Grimm. That's my explanation, anyways.

  • InsaneAlphaBeta

    InsaneAlphaBeta

    #33680839 - 2 weeks ago

    In reply to RedST


    Perhaps but we are talking about literal gods who had the power to create the world, and mankind and everything. Assuming they are true gods i dont think it was due to a lack of power. I think they had a reason to punish Ozpin and not Salem. they could have easily cursed Salem as they cursed Ozpin. ofcorse this is going with the assumption that they are true gods in the sense of...well....godliness. You get the idea.


    I find them making the decision to curse ozpin for failing to stop Salem, and no Salem for doing whatever it is she did...interesting. It implies whatever it is she did in the past, succeeded, whatever that might have been.


    Also worthy of note, I'm sure it took a lot of power to leave remnant for either another universe or world entirely. So that also makes me think it wasn't due to a absence of power.

  • Soarel

    Soarel FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33680843 - 2 weeks ago

    None of this takes into account WoR Aura, which proposes an entirely different origin for Ozpin's abilities. 


    A lot of it also hinges on the idea that the antagonists' goal is to kill everyone, which is...shaky reasoning at best. There's no reason to think that, especially when these characters base their reasons for opposing Ozpin on the way he treats human life.

  • Soarel

    Soarel FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33680848 - 2 weeks ago

    In reply to InsaneAlphaBeta 

    Those songs also make it clear that Salem and Cinder have very good intentions in opposing him.

  • InsaneAlphaBeta

    InsaneAlphaBeta

    #33680873 - 2 weeks ago

    In reply to Soarel


    If your referring to all that ive discovered relying on the antagonists goal being to kill everyone, that's not really the case. Its relies on the information scattered throughout the series being...well reliable.


    But you are right, i haven't watched the WoR on Aura in a very long time, and the other World of Remnants may hold some key information about Ozpin so they are worth rewatching.


    And yeah, the songs like Divide definitely make Ozpin seem like a very bad guy.

  • Soarel

    Soarel FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33680889 - 2 weeks ago

    In reply to InsaneAlphaBeta

    I was talking about what RedST was saying there, not what you were saying. 


    I brought up how it makes them seem good because a lot of people acknowledge how shady Ozpin is but refuse to give Cinder/Salem credit for overthrowing him to liberate the people from his rule.