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Defending Cinder Fall — Kind Of

Posts (9)

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33700343 - 3 months ago


    Towards the end of SEASON 15 of RED VS BLUE, there is an interesting exchange between Tucker & Carolina in regards to the main antagonist of the season, Temple.

    "But he deserves it more than anyone!  He's a killer!"
    "And so are we."

    I realize that starting a RWBY thread with a quote from RED VS BLUE  may be a bit unusual, but I find the context to be fitting.  The fact that Carolina is voiced by Pyrrha's voice actress is just an added bonus. That being said —

    — does Cinder deserve to die?

    I have no doubt that the majority of responders would volunteer their free time to be the executioner.  But that's avoiding the question.  I didn't ask if you want Cinder to die — I asked if she deserved to die.  Two very different topics  as what someone deserves contrasts heavily to what someone wants.

    Let's look at the evil Cinder has wrought — and make no mistake, she has done terrible things.  

    • The Fall Maiden

    Our earliest known act of violence.  To be honest, I'm surprised Cinder & her group pulled this one off.  Either Amber simply did not have the training that Cinder did — and she obviously has had a lot — or she made the tactical mistake of underestimating her opponents.

    The Fall of Beacon

    We are using that word a lot, huh?  It's almost like Barbara wrote VOLUME III.  While I have no doubt that many deaths occurred during this battle, it's important to remember that that it did not take place simply at Beacon Academy, but within Vale itself.  Cinder herself is responsible for three casualties — Ozpin, Pyrrha & Amber.  All others can be attributed to the Grimm, the White Fang or the Atlesian Knights.

    But if Cinder hadn't done what she did, none of this would have happened!

    Remember that Cinder was working for Salem & if you want to do guilt by association, there's going to be a lot of finger pointing.

    Pyrrha's Death

    Okay.  The big one.  Personally, I don't feel as though killing Pyrrha warrants the death sentence, though Cinder does need to pay for her crime in some way.  I've argued before that Cinder didn't even seek Pyrrha out — it was the other way around.  But I'll attempt a different approach.

    At the very least, we know Mercury killed the bookstore owner in VOLUME II.  And what about the main cast?  While most of the opponents that our hunters & huntresses have faced have been Grimm — a significant amount are humans or members of the White Fang.  I doubt that any of the White Fang who faced off against Penny were simply incapacitated & it's unlikely those who faced Team RWBY on the train in VOLUME II faired any better. 

    What about Raven?  She flat out admits what she did to the former Spring Maiden — not to mention countless villages raided by her tribe.

    Cinder killed a beloved character.  I do not question that.  To be honest, Pyrrha was one of my favorites in the show.  But ask yourself, if Pyrrha was still alive & the person Cinder killed was someone you had never heard of — would you care as much?

    Possible Path to Redemption

    Can it be done?  Yes.  For several reasons — and I know I skipped Vernal, but it's getting late here — and it all goes back to this one exchange of dialogue:

    "Do you believe in destiny?"

    Cinder believes in destiny.  What that destiny is, we have yet to discover.  But for five volumes, Cinder has essentially gone undefeated — her destiny has been unchallenged.  Now, all of a sudden she has failed.  When someone believes in destiny & that destiny is suddenly challenged — they are forced to re-examine their entire world.  Cinder's world has been shaken to the core — and no, I don't think she's dead.

    None of us want to see Team RWBY split up again — but someone has to start clearing out Beacon.  What better way for a redemption arc to begin than with the character attempting to fix what they destroyed?  

    Obviously, she can never make up for everything & I'm not suggesting that will ever be the case.  But it would be interesting to watch — especially if Mercury & Emerald join her.

    Please share your thoughts & opinions — but please, be civil.

  • SirSailorStar


    #33701437 - 3 months ago

    That redemption would be cool. Ruby should be present for said redemption. Queen Innocent would bring a site of trust to the theoretical redemption group.

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33701489 - 3 months ago

    In reply to SirSailorStar

    Thank you.  Bear in mind, I am not suggesting that even if Cinder did everything right from here on out that she would ever be forgiven.  She would go into this knowing full well that she might never receive anything but spite — no matter what she does.  The main inspiration behind the idea came from the character of Lady Maria in Bloodborne — someone who also either feels or believes she is damned — and proceeds to attack the player with dual swords, blood & fire.

    Lady Maria of the Astral Clocktower

    I have to say, Cinder would look pretty good in that outfit.

  • SirSailorStar


    #33701518 - 3 months ago

    In reply to ClNDERFALL

    Cool looking character. But, I feel Cinder is too in too herself for that outfit to work. Cinder strikes me as the dress wearing prima dona as of Volume 3 ending and Volume 5's wicked witch of the sass demeanor. If she became good, then that outfit could work...It definitely is a nice outfit.

  • Zalph

    Zalph FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold RWBY Mega-Fan

    #33701854 - 3 months ago

    Cinder is power-hungry, she claimed it herself. Obsessed with the idea of being feared, she'll do anything to get there. I don't believe in anyone "deserving death" or a death sentence where once a person crosses a certain line, they should die. I believe in "suicide" where a person will make choices that will eventually lead to their death.

    For example: Pyrrha Nikos died because she wanted to fight Cinder, but for what? No friends were in danger by her at the moment, and Cinder already claimed the Fall Maiden powers AND killed Ozpin. Pyrrha did not need to fight Cinder, but she felt it was kind of her destiny which led to her "suicide."

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33702112 - 3 months ago

    In reply to Zalph

    I've never disputed that Cinder desires power — why she wants it is rather important, despite what some in the forums may think.  We know she wants power.  She wants to be feared.  Fair enough — but why?  As of writing this the only character in RWBY that we know less about than Cinder is Neo.  We don't know where she's from.  We don't know her motivations.  We don't even know her real name apparently.

    And for the record — yes, fighting Cinder was a hopeless battle.  I still don't know what Pyrrha was thinking.

  • SirSailorStar


    #33702234 - 3 months ago

    In reply to ClNDERFALL

    I did not want to see it before, but the lack of background for ALOT of the characters in this show has become extremely apparent since the ending of volume 5. Everyone got hit with the stupid stick. Cinder, who wanted nothing more than to end Ruby, ignored unconscious Ruby. I do not see that as normal for her. So much this season made no sense for Cinder. I wish she stayed the way she was in Volume 3 and did not die in the end. No other villain is interesting to me now....

    I am afraid without Cinder, I am going to start to viewing this series as any other fighting anime. Cool characters with weapons and villain to conquer the world. Ruby makes the show cutesy and special with her silver eyes, but what is it without the favorite villain we can love to hate? I just purely hate the other idiots who pettily claim to be villains....Sigh.

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33702374 - 3 months ago

    In reply to SirSailorStar

    Given the size of the cast of characters within the show, it's not surprising that only a handful have back stories.  What makes Cinder unique is that she is, in fact, a main character.  Every other main character has a back story to some extent by now.  Cinder — for some reason — remains a mystery.  

    As for your "stupid stick" theory — I don't know if I agree.  Cinder doesn't want to simply kill Ruby — at least, that's the implication.  And during the fight at Haven — Ruby was not the primary goal.  If anything, capturing her would have been a bonus but the villains had a clear primary objective.

    Did characters have moments that made us roll our eyes?  Sure.  But overall, I wouldn't say everyone was hit by the "stupid stick".

  • RavenBranwen008


    #33702504 - 3 months ago

    I have to agree that Cinder is the coolest antagonist in the series RWBY. She's among one of my favorite villains.