I mean. I'm pretty sure your comments over Raven aren't in question here...Especially not from me. I didn't expect someone to agree with me right off the bat with my opinion on Raven. I kind of expected to get flamed at first, to be honest...
The Irritation that is Raven Branwing--Why Does She Exist as a Character?
#33703499 - 9 months ago
If anything, Raven reminds me of Wang Liu Mei of Gundam 00. You know the type: it's ALL about her, no matter what. Even willing to play both sides of a major conflict just for her own gain and amusement. Problem is, these types tend to ultimately piss off the wrong people, people that decide that she's useless to them. And when that happens....well...start it at 17:30.
#33704430 - 9 months ago
This is a strange twist, since Raven was first shown to be an all-around hate-able character, and that was kind of the idea. She had this twisted idea of family, even to the point of ditching blood relations whom she deemed as weak or not favorable, and going all-in for her tribe instead. That was dark, but I did like it.
But now she appeared to be weak, with weak ideas and motivations, doing a 180° with just a dialogue with Yang. That was strange and out of character. I thought RT was going to keep her a neutral character, but now we don't even have that.
As for her portals... I have an idea. She can create portals leading to people with whom she has a strong bond. But it doesn't necessarily have to be a positive bond, only a strong one. Hell, she could have one for Salem, for all we know. And I seriously doubt Raven has Salem in a positive light.
#33704465 - 9 months ago
I'm not understanding the frustration to be honest at least to the level you're in. Raven is a type of character that's so worked up about surviving at any cost that she lost sight of what was really important and there are negative consequences that came out of it as a result despite having some legit concerns for her daughter or what's left of it. She does thing that make you mad at her for doing though we're getting some understanding why she did them despite them being flawed.
So I believe that she's being written as someone that you're not sure what to make of her and that's what makes it frustrating so if that's the intent then they're doing a good job at it because we sadly have people like that in real life in that at one point we're mad at them but at the same time we sort of get why they did it despite still being wrong.
#33704520 - 9 months ago
Nah, it's a case of the writers telling us that she cares, when literally everything she's done suggests otherwise, despite her portal-bond bullshit. She treats everyone around her as a resource, and is fully willing to discard any that she doesn't see any use for. Again, REAL hard sell to say that she cares about people when she's fully willing to kill Qrow. For all we know, the "bond" she has with Qrow and Yang is completely blood-bound and has NOTHING to do with her emotional attachments. For all we know, the only reason she can still port to Taiyang is because she bore HIS child (so the bond is via Yang and not technically to him. But in the end, I have a LOT of trouble buying that she actually cares about people. And if I'm wrong, then it's actually MORE damning on her. Just imagine someone wanting to use someone else as a save point for your superpower, and being willing to care about them just for that....
Now THAT is a special kind of shitty person.
#33704562 - 9 months ago
Some part of me has always kind of seen Raven as the sort who took it upon herself to be that sort of lousy mother, abandoning her family and returning to her tribe - but because she was trying to spare them whatever trouble she might be in. Without knowing more about Summer and her death, it's hard to say, but if she had some part in it maybe she left out of fear of getting someone else she cared for killed? And the tribe was the only other place she could go?
Just spitballing here really. But there's plenty of real life instances of good people doing lousy things; I kind of look at Raven as a good person - not a saint by any means, but not evil, getting so far into this hole she's dug that she kind of can't turn back.
#33704568 - 9 months ago
I like the portal theory. Maybe Raven will double cross everyone and bring Ruby to Salem? I hope not, but that suddenly becomes a possibility with that theory.
I more so raged at the fact the writers made her nuetral for no reason....
She is definitely in a whole, but I'm sure she'll climb out somehow.
#33704590 - 9 months ago
True! Though personally I attribute that to everything else that was going on. At her camp, Raven was keeping up the facade. At Haven, with everything going on, she wasn't going to just sit there and explain everything in that moment.
I think if she was really as heartless as people made her out to be, she wouldn't have gotten emotional. From what I saw, we saw a break in the shell she'd worked years to build, and maybe a glimpse of a character who has done awful things, but done them for what she felt was the right reason.
#33704629 - 9 months ago
Damn, so much spit against RAVEN ! Do you want to attract grimm ? kidding...
You can hate the girl, that your choice, (even if i disagree) but go as far as tell that she shouldn't
exist is, in my opinion, an insult to the creator of RWBY especially against a character so complex.
I think you all get her wrong
Who care if people use alt-account, please don't waste our time.
About your analysis on Pyrrha's death and Weiss miraculous rescue i think your a bit harsh.
I found Pyrrha's death well written since it's unlock Rwby secret power and strengthens Jaune resolve. It's a surprising move that make the other character more interesting.
About Weiss near death, i agree that is a bit messy but not because she been save but because she been hit. It's look like she been hurt only to make Jaune unlock his semblance so he can finally become useful. BTW I'm disappoint with Jaune semblance.
I think making Weiss die would be stupid. In this show were feeling are a main topic it's would destroy Rwby will and any way to continue the show would be ridiculous but making her hurt so her prince can came rescue her isn't very smart neither.
Let's go back to the topic : Raven
I think raven is a very good person but she is broken.
First crack : She lost her BFF Summer.
Imagine a second what will become Rwby if she really had lost Weiss and you get the idea.
Second crack : She learn the true danger of Salem and had been change by Ozpin.
She may look strong but people who act like her are often weaker than you think. Learning the true danger of this world isn't something everybody can bear. We can't blame her if she didn't want to fight against Salem, plus with her "werebird" ability she probably see more horror than almost everybody, like those black lakes who give live to grimm. Finally i wouldn't be surprise if her brother more or less force her to take the "werebird gift " from Ozpin.
Third crack : Her brother abandon her to go save the world.
They both came to learn how to fight for their tribe but on the way Crow really join Ozpin and abandon the tribe. it's Crow who betray her and not the opposite. The worst part for her it's she know Crow did the right thing. But it's still betray and someone had to take responsibility, her sense of duty tell her she had to go back to the tribe.
Forth crack : She had to abandon her daughter and her lover.
Like i say, she feel she had to go back to the tribe even if she had a child and a husband.We don't know exactly when she leave. there is two possibility : She left soon after given birth to Yang before Tai and Summer get together or Raven and Tai split-up long before and she leave just after Summer death. I tend to the first : she left because Tai didn't want to go with her to the tribe (adding his betray to her bother) and she learn about Summer death later (adding the gilt of not been here to help her BFF to the first crack).
Fifth crack ; She had to become the Spring Maiden.
Some time after she go back to the tribe, the former spring maiden flee ozpin and get caught by raven and her bandit friends. Raven may have flee the battle against Salem (but i think she came by duty and not fear), but the battle came at her. She caught a very dangerous person. She had two choice: send her back to ozpin and her brother or keep her. The girl probably didn't want to go back but if Raven just want to avoid problem she would have send her back immediately but she didn't. She choose to keep her, to help her, to train her but that didn't work. The maiden was still weak and afraid. so what's left ? what best for her tribe ? for the world ? i think she had no other choice : She had to become the Spring Maiden.
All of this happen before the event of the show but i didn't think i get them wrong, i may extrapolate a little but it's seem accurate. I have to add that any of this event are selfish or made for survive but just bad fate.
That why I see her as a broken heroes, but still a heroes, still a very good person. She has not fallen despite been shatter she never did anything bad.
Feel free to argue if you disagree
But I'm not finish !!
I still have to defend her action in the show but I'm tired so ... later.
#33704716 - 9 months ago
I do agree that flat out saying "this character shouldn't exist" is very harsh. But here's the thing: we're not just saying she shouldn't. We are discussing her character, and how it affects the story and other characters, both in a positive and a negative way. Turns out the negative part is way more than the positive, at which point there is the possibility that the character is downright harmful to the story.
But going back to your post, that's a lot of assumptions, don't you think? Let's see:
"She lost her BFF Summer" Do we know that? For all we know, they didn't even like each other. That's just as likely. Remember how Weiss and Blake were opposed, and it took a goddamn terrorist attack to bring her together. There are no hints of such an event taking place when STRQ was at Beacon.
"She learn the true danger of Salem and had been change by Ozpin" This is actually a valid point. Again, there are a lot of things we don't know, so this one's OK.
"Her brother abandon her to go save the world" A matter of perspective, but we can say it was the opposite. Qrow abandoned her. See, then they were back at the tribe, and Raven just wanted to protect them. Qrow saw the other part of the story, the one Raven was blind to: that they left their family. In her eyes, Qrow was weak, and left her alone. For Raven, he was the one lacking the sense of duty.
"She had to abandon her daughter and her lover" Did we watch the same show? Raven left them willingly. Tai, Yang and Qrow say so. It's their word against Raven's. And not only she abandoned them, she deemed them too weak to live with. That's an insult if I ever saw one, considering how Tai and Qrow were respected Huntsmen.
"She had to become the Spring Maiden" So she had to. Let's see: I'm against the world, both the institutionalized Hunters and the world-ending Salem, and now I stumbled upon one of the most powerful entities in the world, one who is afraid to fight, but whose power can be mine. If Raven had the ability to put two and two together, this one's a no brainer. We don't know how exactly she got the Maiden powers, but I'm willing to bet she wasn't mad at the idea of getting them.
Also, any of this event are selfish or made for survive but just bad fate. Bad choices, perhaps. But Raven was ill intended the whole time, ditching her family and leaving with the tribe instead. That's not bad fate. That's her own will.
Raven's character is broken, sure. But let's not assume she's the poor girl against an unforgiving world. She's a self-made liar, deceiver and backslasher, who wouldn't stop at nothing to get her way.
#33704865 - 9 months ago
Ummm...if you actually read his post, he's come to the same conclusion I did: that Raven Brawnwen made these choices of her own will, that she CHOSE to walk this path. There's nothing forcing her down this road. I'm guessing your praise was for gotth, not FettuCR, considering gotth was the one blindly coming to Raven's defense.
#33704873 - 9 months ago
I do see the thing she's been through, and this reinforces my idea that she is not a nice person. Most of those choices were done on the grounds that the people around her are weak and not trustworthy, regardless of this being true or not. Other than not trusting the Oz, and maybe getting the Maiden powers, all the other choices Raven made were her own.
#33704915 - 9 months ago
Well you may be right, but i think you give to much credit on the plot and view thing to much rationally, after all we talk about art, aesthetic may be be the most important part. I see RWBY more like a beautiful hut in a tree than a Skyscraper.
I gonna post a comment more detailed on your page later.. maybe.
Don't worry I'm not finish ;)
It's true i may have been a bit subjective or it's more like i only focus on the good in the character but isn't it kinda the spirit of RWBY ?
Let me correct that .
We can change She lost her BFF by She lost her teammate , it didn't diminish the point very much. I just say BFF because of the scene between Rwby and Weiss in season 3 episode 1. Raven may not think of Summer as her BFF but i think Summer did or at least want to.
About "Her brother abandon her to go save the world" it seem we agree, I'll just add that Raven admit (and only her) that they came to learn how to kill huntsman as counter those who attack the tribe. It may be "learn to kill" but it's also "kill to protect".
About "She had to abandon her daughter and her lover" you say Raven left them willingly.
You're right, Raven leave just after Yang birth. Yang told it to Black in season 2 just before the ball (i had forgot that part). I say she had because she didn't want to abandon her tribe but she made a choice between Yang and Tai or her tribe. She may have think of taking Yang with her but wouldn't it be worst for baby Yang ? There is a lot of unknown here. Did she talk to Tai before leave ? to Crow ? Did she move by duty or to flee the fight ? Did she ask Tai to not talk to Yang about her or did it's Tai choice ? We may have some answer on season 6 so move on.
About "She had to become the Spring Maiden". I admit this one is tricky. The only info we had is the conversation between Raven and Yang. i think Raven didn't lie to Yang, She didn't back in the camp when they first meet. During that talk Raven say "She was scare when we found her, weak, no matter how much training i put her trough she never learn" that mean Raven didn't carve for her power she really tried to help her. After she say "what i did it was mercy" i truly believe that. I don't think it's possible to force a Maiden, even a weak one, to give you her power if she don't want to, not without that horrible bug grimm Cinder use. That why i tell she had to, she had to kill her because she ask her to kill her. I know there is no proof but it's feel correct.
Finally you say She's a self-made liar, deceiver and back-slasher, who wouldn't stop at nothing to get her way.
I disagree, the only time i see her lied, deceive and plan to backslash is when she talk to Cinder group at her camp. I think she cleverly compel cinder to go against Crow because she know it was the best hope of success for Ozpin, no, for everybody. She knew the second they discover she was the maiden their will tried to kill her and stole her power. In the end she bet everything on that battle ( and she won the bet).
What else to say ? how about how rude Crow was when they talk in that bar in season 4 ? Or how about how much love you can feel when Tai talk about her to Yang during their training ? Maybe how much the people in the tribe does NOT look like cool blood killer ? oh i know :
HOW ABOUT THE FACT SHE JUST KILL CINDER, MOST DANGEROUS BEING OF REMNANT (EXCEPT SALEM) AND RESCUE THE RELIC FROM BEEN BRING TO SALEM CAUSING THE END OF THE WORLD ALL BY HERSELF ??!!
Seriously didn't she just made the most heroic thing in the show ?? even the "I petrified a grimm dragon with my eyes" of Rwby is below that !! And how did she get reward ? by been split on by her own daughter because she made difficult choice (the right one BTW) !! Come on Yang i know you two got issue but couldn't you just say a little thanks ?
So to the question : Why Does she Exist as a character ? of this topic.
it's seem the answer is :
She exist to save everybody so they can tell her how bad she is !!
I start to think she actually the biggest victim of the bad luck charm of crow !
Feel free to argue if you disagree, but you better have solid argument .
#33704949 - 9 months ago
See, here's the problem with that: a story has a fundamental FUNCTION, beyond mere art. That means that it's not entirely aesthetic. Your analogy of a tree hut as opposed to a skyscraper also has one commonality that relates to the objective that you might have missed: they both require a strong foundation and structure in order to stand. And when that foundation can be easily broken...well then, what is the point of admiring the aesthetic? That concept of requiring a solid foundation, much like any architect would have to, is present in ALL fiction. It is something that must be addressed, since the author is effectively building something. Just as the car engine requires all its moving parts to function at its standards, so too does any story. What the piece I linked here does is show in detail just how ineffective their final product is in terms of its function, and then compared it to the same sequence of events in another show that put forth the effort to build a solid foundation underneath it. My choice of Dragonball Z was intentional, as it is a show that is highly derided by the modern audience.
#33704950 - 9 months ago
I do have a solid argument. She was meant to be a NEUTRAL character and then she goes to try and play a hero. Cinder appears and starts to rock the neutral boat. How does Raven react? She wants to kill her brother and attack her daughter. Why would Yang EVER want to forgive that? All of the anger that girl felt over being abandoned and seeing her sister get attacked with the help of Raven came rushing forth. And finally on that scene, Raven only opened the way for that relic to help herself. She did not care who it hurt as long as it kept her alive.
Raven could have just given the relic to Salem when she comes for Raven's head knowing she has the relic. Raven is a coward and let her daughter take on that threat because she got reminded of the price of that relic carried. Why do you think Yang cried? She got abandoned again and this time it was because her mother chose herself over her own daughter.
And I must say, the reason she exists as a character to me is to save herself when the scary world comes knocking. That is NOT how a mother should act and certainly not how a maiden should act.
I know this is coming off as heavy hate for the character, but it is more so frustration at the character just being written to do a 180 degree turn from ideals she has lived by for years all because her daughter scowled at her like a parent would to her misbehaving child. I'm all for Raven becoming a better person, but why must it be at the cost of telling a bad story?
#33704981 - 9 months ago
Sorry, but I can't see Raven as a victim. She left her family, gave her own brother the boot, went with a band of vandals, and allied herself with the ultimate evil, leading to her own portals allowing Cinder to open fire on the Beacon students. How is that being a victim?
I'll give some room to that "allying with Salem" part, because as I see it, and knowing Raven, I'd say she sided with her, like Adam, out of fear. But possibly Raven was looking to cross her and get away with it. As SirSailor says, she was meant to be a neutral character, but now that went out of the window.