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applemaster
Apple UsersThis thread is, in theory, a place for Mac users (all 4 of us) to hang out and talk about all things Apple. So some on in and lets talk Mac!!
#1  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 9 Cool
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dark_hunter
So what do you guys think of Apple going Intel x86?
I think it's a bad move because it's a dieing breed of chips. They should have gone with AMD, or even the Cell.
#2  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  - 3 Noob
00_Donut
i would talk mac but the only experience i have had with a mac is using Dreamweaver on it.
#3  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
00_Donut
Well as it is going x86 it should work on the AMD Athlon series because they use the x86 archatechture, but their best bet would to be to port it x86_64
#4  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
neoduck
i love my mac

i was supprised that they were gonna do that!!
#5  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
applemaster
I was mad at first, but now I think they made a smart move. Intel wasn't focusing on Apple and AMD chips are better for games, which is not what Macs are really designed for, so Apple went with Intel. I think Steve is going to give us some great Macs!
#6  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
_Genesis_ Sponsor
I love my mac, or rather my dad's. About intel, I think it was more of a management issue. Apple had been having problems with IBM, like they had had wiht motorola, and according to Technology Review, the MIT science magaziene, Intell has come up with a new chip process that will allow the current "shrinking" of technology.

my two cents. I'll get you a link to the article when I find one.

I wonder if this'll post: ? (alt+shit+k)
#7  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
_Genesis_ Sponsor
Found the article: here
#8  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
pryman
Just wanted to chime in and say that there are 5 of us now!
#10  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
applemaster
In reply to _Genesis_, #7:

Ya, I think that the switch will be, overall, a good choice.
#11  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
applemaster
In reply to pryman, #10:

Welcome! Our numbers are growing, muahahaha!
#12  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
ShitForBrain
I switch between a Windows machine and a OSX (Tiger) machine. Guess I'm bi. :-)
#13  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
00_Donut
Well i am windows, Linux and partially mac now, so does that make me tri?
#14  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
lunacite
I plan to run the version of OSX that will undoubtedly be cracked to run on non-apple x86 systems.
#15  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
00_Donut
how are they going to stop it running on the ordinary x86 pc anyways?
will it require a special bios or motherboard or something like that?
#16  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
pryman
See... here's my deal. I hate the Windows OS; however, I love the PC platform. On the other hand... I love OSX; however, I hate the MAC platform. I have been saying since the release of OSX, "My ideal PC would be OSX on a PC tower." I am really excited about the move to the x86 chipset.

The question is now... If I'm an AMD guy, will OSX run on my computer?
#17  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Alsace WWWWWWWWWWWW
In reply to pryman, #17:

The short answer is "no." At least Apple doesn't have plans to release OS X into the PC sector. However that might all change.

I posted about this in my journal, so just click there I so don't have to copy and paste it.

That just posts the possibility of running OS X on anything that isn't a Mac. If OS X is released into the wild, it probably won't work on AMD chips until it is cracked/modified in some way. I'd imagine the OS/bootloader will check the bios for the processor info and if it's not an Intel it'll crap out. But, at the same time if Apple is forced to open it to the PC world through a lawsuit as my journal suggests, I would imagine AMD support would have to be included.
#18  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Alsace WWWWWWWWWWWW
In reply to dark_hunter, #2:

Intel isn't dying. They've got the capital to keep them from dying for a long time. Apple is particularly interested in dual core Pentium Ms, because of their lower power draw and comparable performance to the P4.

Intel is certainly changing, but it's not death. They're mirroring very closely what AMD does because quite frankly, AMD took the correct philosophy from the get go. Intel offered high Ghz but low effeciency and now that they've hit the upper limit on the Ghz, they're looking to be as efficient as AMD chips. So now they've jumped to dual core and looking for better prediction.

The cell processor is going to suck for hihg-end or desktop computing from what I've read. It's easily scaled downward but not upward. And it's going to be manufactured in part by IBM which means that Apple would have supply woes if they had chosen that route. Also, the decision to possibly port Apple over to x86 was begun 5 years ago. The cell was not around then. The reason why they can make the switch to x86 is that it's already been coded on that architecture.

And while AMD does make superior chips, it doesn't have the production capability that Intel does. Intel's got the money and the resources to mass produce chips beyond what AMD can muster.
#19  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
_Genesis_ Sponsor
In reply to Alsace, #18:

I also put this in your journal.
Apple says they won't allow other PC vendors to ship OS X. But that might not hold true and may not be legal. The article suggests that Apple may unwillingly have to ship OS X for other manufacturers if a lawsuit should take place. Considering the importance of precedence in the legal system, this is plausible. How many manufacturers would risk the defamation from the mac loyal, I don't know, but then, they aren't the audience out buying PCs either. So a lawsuit may not adversely affect said computer maker.

It doesn't sound as much of a monopoly to me as it does vertical operation, like when Carnegie controlled all aspects of his steel company, from mining, to smelting, to production. There is no monopoly on having a certain software work on a specific hardware if it is not the only one available in the industry. Further more, if the hardware and software are patented there is no monopoly, there is protection of your product. Do we sue Sony for only allowing the Playstation software to run on the PS2? No. Why? Because they have created a product and patented the technology and software.

The reason Dell, HP, and others can make PC clones is because IBM did not patent the motherboard technology and it became an industry standard. Apple tried the clone market but almost went bankrupt. What is the clone market for Apple? Licensing the right to make the Hardware that Apple has Patented, ot run the software Apple has patented.

In other article about the Apple Intel switch, there is the note that Apple Intel chips will not be the ones you find in everyday PC, but special chip designed to use only the Apple Software.

Here
Though the transition is likely to be rocky at first for Apple, programmers and customers, the move could lead to Macs that are both more competitive and more compatible with Windows. It could even open the Mac to software titles now available only to Windows users.

At the same time, Apple would retain as much control as it wants over its software and brand.

Beyond the future performance and energy efficiency improvements Intel has promised, Apple could deploy an Intel security scheme that could allow Apple to keep its operating system locked to Macs. Apple also could tap a separate Intel technology that lets multiple operating systems run efficiently on a single chip.

Such advances could be critical for Apple, which has gained a reputation for building innovative and stylish machines that run Apple's own, acclaimed Mac OS X operating system. By not allowing clones, as are common in the Windows world, Apple can still charge a premium and differentiate itself....

....IBM famously failed to stop competitors from copying its PC. A healthy IBM clone industry grew, fueled by the support of software developers, who saw the huge business opportunity in the volume of clone PCs being purchased....

.....That's where the new technologies come into play and why Apple is so willing to make a move.

Intel has been touting a hardware-based security plan called LaGrande Technology as a way to keep systems secure by locking data with a key that's embedded in a hardware chip.

But LaGrande also could be used to ensure that certain software only runs on permitted machines, such as Mac OS X only running on systems built by Apple.

"You can tie the serial number of the software with the hardware ID, and say these things go together and shall never be separate," said Roger Kay, an analyst at IDC.........
#20  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
neatoburrito feral youth
anyone that causes mac vs. pc drama in this thread gets an immediate day-long ban. please notify me if this happens, folks.
#21  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
applemaster
In reply to neatoburrito, #21:

Awww, but its fun to bicker! Jk, don't worry, we'll keep it clean.
#22  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
pjb897
I my Mac, too (Dual 1.42 G4, Radeon 9800, 4th gen 20 Gig iPod).

RE: Intel Macs, I've been reading mixed predictions on backwards compatibility with existing software & the new machines. Something about needing to run emulation software on the Intel Macs to run current programs, and the reduction in performance that will cause. I'd have to search more for the info to share, and I'm on my way out the door at work...

Anyway, any thoughts on backwards compatibility?
#23  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
dollerbill Sponsor
In reply to ShitForBrain, #13:

Hey me too.. I never thought I'd be a bi though.. :\


But I use them both for their own strengths. Seeing as how BF2 just came out, I gotta run the PC for now. As soon as I shoot some more vids I plug it in my Mac and let 'er rip. I recently tried editing a video on my Pc... Baaaad news.. Maybe I just have a certain problem, but Windows Movie Maker crashed literally every 30 seconds. So fuck that. My Mac ( 17" flat screen iMac I <3 it) didn't have a problem and then asked me if I wanted to burn it to a dvd.. Yay for computers
#24  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
applemaster
In reply to pjb897, #23:

Ya, there is an amulation software called Rossetta Stone, which translates the binarys of a PowerPC app every time you use it, but its not like classic, it is invisible. At WWDC it ran really quite fast (it launched Photoshop CS2 at about the same speed as my 12" PB). But most major developers will convert their apps into universal binarys (it took a Mathematica developler like 2 hours to do), so there is not really an issue with backwards compatability.
#25  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Alsace WWWWWWWWWWWW
In reply to applemaster, #25:

Depends. The software is just technically "Rosetta" I believe. Turns out the hardware now is fast enough to emulate without a huge drop in speed. Some programs will take a while to recompile though. Anything in Xcode is simple enough to tick a box and recompile to run on x86, but not all programs were compiled through xcode and will take longer.
#26  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
applemaster
In reply to Alsace, #26:

Ya, at WWDC Steve really stressed that all developers should move to Xcode. The fact that Mathematica was recompiled in about 2 hours should be a relief for developers. Mathematica is a HUGE app, and a very complicated one.
#27  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Alsace WWWWWWWWWWWW
In reply to applemaster, #27:

Right. But not everything was done that way, and moving can be more of a pain:
Some developers will not be able to make the same wager as Shipley. Programs that directly address the PowerPC processor, including those that take advantage of the AltiVec vector processing capabilities of the G4 and G5 chips, will need to be more dramatically modified. Elgato Systems’ EyeTV, for example, has a large amount of heavily optimized AltiVec code, so that presents a challenge that other programs don’t necessarily have to face.

“Porting the AltiVec code to Intel’s SSE [the Intel equivalent to AltiVec] can be equivalent to a full rewrite — two different code bases need to be maintained, tested, and qualified,” said Dr. Markus Fest, Elgato’s founder and chief technology officer. Nevertheless, Fest stressed that all Elgato products would run natively on Macs with PowerPC and Intel chips and that he expects a “relatively painless transition for end users and most developers.”

Mathematica only required 20 lines of codes to be changed. If that's the case, that was easy and it sounds like they didn't have much of the above going on.

However, as a benefit - I don't see any programs being dropped because they'd have to be recompiled. People don't seem thrilled to have it to do it - but they will. That's the mac developer community for you though.
#28  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
alienorgy05
kind of off topic, but it is about macs and I can't find anywhere else that it would fit.

I've been a PC fan for years, prolly b/c i've never give macs a chance b/c the only ones I've ever used were the ones in schools, and those are hardly ever worth anyones time. The thing is the college i'm going to, the theatre department requires a mac. but for whatever reason they won't release what they recommend. So if it's not to much trouble what do you recomend? keep in mind, 1) I'm in college 2) it's theatre
#29  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
pjb897
The Apple Store offers student discounts (click Education Discounts on the bottom left), so that will help. Best bet would be one of the Mac Minis, starting at $499 before student discount. It should be able to handle all of your basic needs. If you're feeling saucey & your pockets are a little deeper, look at the iMac G5s- they're really cool. Software is another issue - Microsoft Office Suite for students is available for around $145 at various outlets.

I'm curious- why does the department require a Mac? Do they have specific software they need you to run?
#30  Posted 8 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
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