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Templar895
Islam Discussion Thread(I did a quick search and couldn't find a thread.)

I'm not Islamic, nor do I claim to be an expert on one. But since this is one of the more controversial and hated religions in America, I figured it deserves a thread of its own.

Everything I know, and what should be known about Islam, can be found here

I'll quote some stuff.


Why does Islam often seem strange?

Islam may seem exotic or even extreme in the modern world. Perhaps this is because religion does not dominate everyday life in the West today, whereas Muslims have religion always uppermost in their minds, and make no division between the secular and the sacred. They believe that the Divine Law, the Shari'ah, should be taken very seriously, which is why issues related to religion are still so important.

What are the 'Five Pillars' of Islam?
They are the framework of the Muslim life: faith, prayer, concern for the needy, self-purification, and the pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.

Does Islam tolerate Other beliefs?

As for such (of the unbelievers) as do not fight against you on account of (your) faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, Allah does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verify, Allah loves those who act equitably. (Qur'an, 60:8)

It is one function of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world. History provides many examples of Muslim tolerance towards other faiths: when the Caliph Omar entered Jerusalem in the year 634, Islam granted freedom of worship to all religious communities in the city.

Islamic law also permits non­Muslim minorities to set up their own courts, which implement family laws drawn up by the minorities themselves.

What do Muslims think about Jesus?

Muslims respect and revere Jesus (peace be on him), and await his Second Coming. They consider him one of the greatest of God's messengers to mankind! A Muslim never refers to him simply as 'Jesus', but always adds the phrase 'peace be on him.' The Qur'an confirms his virgin birth (a chapter of the Qur'an is entitled 'Mary'), and Mary is considered the purest woman in all creation. The Qur'an describes the Annunciation as follows:

'Behold!' the Angel said, 'Allah has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations. O Mary, Allah gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honoured in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near to Allah. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and in maturity, and shall be of the righteous.

Why is the family so important to Muslims?

The family is the foundation of Islamic society. The peace and security offered by a stable family unit is greatly valued, and seen as essential for the spiritual growth of its members. A harmonious existence of extended families; children are treasured and rarely leave home until the time they marry.

What about Muslim women?

Islam sees a woman, whether single or married, as an individual in her own right, and with the right to own an dispose of her property and earnings. A marriage dowry is given by the groom to the bride for her own personal use, and she keeps her own family name rather taking her husband's.

Both men and women are expected to dress in a way which is modest and dignified. The Messenger of Allah (peace be on him) said: 'The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife.'

Can a Muslim have more that one wife?

The religion of Islam was revealed for all societies and all times and so accommodates widely differing social requirements. Circumstances may warrant the taking of another wife but the right is granted, according to the Qur'an, only on condition that the husband is scrupulously fair.

Is Islamic marriage like Christian marriage?

A Muslim marriage is not a 'sacrament,' but a simple, legal agreement in which either partner is free to include conditions. Marriage customs thus vary widely from country to country. As a result, divorce is not common, although it is not forbidden as a last resort. According to Islam, no Muslim girl can be forced to marry against her will.

What does Islam say about war?

Islam permits fighting in self­defence, in defence of religion, or on the part of those who have been expelled forcibly from their homes. It lays down strict rules of combat, which include prohibitions against harming civilians and against destroying crops, trees and livestock. As Muslims see it, injustice would be triumphant in the world, if good men were not prepared to risk their lives in a righteous cause. The Qur'an says:

"Fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. Allah does not love transgressors." (Qur'an, 2:190)

"If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in Allah for He is the One that hears and knows all things." (Qur'an, 8:61)

War, therefore, is the last resort, and is subject to the rigorous conditions laid down by the sacred law. The term Jihad literally means 'struggle', and Muslims believe that there are two kinds of Jihad. The other 'Jihad' is the inner struggle which everyone wages against egoistic desires, for the sake of attaining inner peace.

The reality of Islam, not some jingoistic bullshit and viewing extremists as the whole :/
#1  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 3 Cool
210 REPLIES Watch  |  Sort by Likes · Date
LOST687
Buddaism is better. Period.
#2  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  - 3 Lame
sargez117234
In reply to LOST687, #2:

we're not here to discuss buddaism, nuff said.

I'm all for islam, but I don't agree with it at all, mainly because some of the stuff seems off the wall for a chirstan
#3  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  - 1 Noob
crazylilviet
Islam was once Judiasm like Christianity. It's the same God in essense. Why can't we just be friends and kill hippies instead?
#4  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 8 Funny
Templar895
In reply to crazylilviet, #4:

Remember, hippies got us out of 'Nam.
#5  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  - 4 Lame
42111
'Nam......................
#6  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
crazylilviet
I am Viet. Now, pulling out of Nam was a horrible decision. When Saigon fell, many innocent people were killed. More over, thousands were brainwashed into supporting communism after the north gained total control of Vietnam.
#7  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 4 Ditto
Drizztd44
In reply to crazylilviet, #7:

This thread is about Islam, not your fictional tour of duty in Nam.

Now back to the thread.

So how about fasting, what are your alls opinions on fasting.
#8  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  - 2 WTF
crazylilviet
I never siad I was in Nam. I said that I am Vietnamese. My family fought and died for South Vietnam. I know what I'm talking about.

And I'm all for fasting. Lots of other religions do it.
#9  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 1 Zing!
Drizztd44
In reply to crazylilviet, #9:

God. I must seriously be going blind. I read that as Vet. My bad. That is the second time in two days where I have completely missed letters in a word.

Time to go see the opthemologist.
#10  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 3 Funny
TheClash
In reply to Drizztd44, #11:

Very enlightening thread. A great summary of Islam's beliefs...oh and Drizztd going insane.
#11  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
TheClash
My question is though, for anyone who is Muslim and may know this, does the Islamic church(or power structure, I apologize for lack of knowledge) condemn countries where the governments' introduce laws that contradict Muslim law and state it to be the word of Muhammad?

Is there any form or recourse by the Muslim community about countries that remove women's rights and impose strict laws that stand in stark contrast to the laws of Islam?
#12  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
BigGator5
In reply to Templar895, #1:
I'm not Islamic, nor do I claim to be an expert on one. But since this is one of the more controversial and hated religions in America, I figured it deserves a thread of its own.
...
The reality of Islam, not some jingoistic bullshit and viewing extremists as the whole :/
I take offence to that comment. If this was the case, Bush would have locked up every Muslim in the US like FDR did to the Japanese and Germen people. We all know it's Islamic Terrorists who have attacked and threaten the world and not mainstream Islam.

I would like for once for people to place this conflict as Freedom vs Terror, instead of the usual Christianity vs Islam.

Fuck people, I'm an Atheist and I understand the wrap view of Terrorists on Islam. But my head spins when you guys don't even see your wrap view on religion as a whole.
#13  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Antardragon
In reply to Templar895, #1:

Hated? One of the fastest growing religions in the US is Islam (that, and Paganism).
#14  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
NaraVara Forum Mod
My question is though, for anyone who is Muslim and may know this, does the Islamic church(or power structure, I apologize for lack of knowledge) condemn countries where the governments' introduce laws that contradict Muslim law and state it to be the word of Muhammad?
There is no unified power-structure. Islamic theology and law are done by a group of religiously educated folks called the Ulema. It's very similar to Phds at a university. They study up on Islamic scriptures and commentaries and once they achieve a high enough level of proficiency they become acknowledged in their communities as being authorities on religion. There's not much pomp and ceremony involved as there is with clergy in the RC Church.

So imagine if each and every person with a PHD in religion was an authority on the matter. That's pretty much what the Islamic "heirarchy" is like. You can choose to listen to whichever Imam you want to. And there are a whole bunch. They issue fatwas and stuff every now and then, but they only have force if there are people listening.
#15  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 1 Cool
TheClash
In reply to Pavan, #16:

Thanks for the clarification of that Pavan. That structure really does leave much to be desired though, I can see how misrepresentations of Islam can flourish and be seen as valid views of what Allah says.
#16  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
NaraVara Forum Mod
Thanks for the clarification of that Pavan. That structure really does leave much to be desired though, I can see how misrepresentations of Islam can flourish and be seen as valid views of what Allah says.
Protestantism is pretty much the same way. You have clergy get ordained at a seminary, and they get hired by whicever church feels like hiring them.
#17  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
TheClash
In reply to Pavan, #18:

That's true, but then again I wouldn't say I agree with Protestanism either on that matter.

On the grounds of a structuralist church I usually disagree because it can hinder the evolution of the religion and block out views of the minority of the church.

I only dissent from my former view when irrational and extremist views come into play such as here.
#18  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
NaraVara Forum Mod
In reply to TheClash, #19:

In the long run it all amounts to the same thing. Having a structured heirarchy didn't stop the Catholic Church from launching inquisitions and whatnot. Neither did Islam's structured heirarchy in the time of the Khalifat stop it from running roughshod over all of Asia.
Extremist views take hold when people are ignorant and poor. It doesn't really matter what system authority operates under. In the end, ignorant men will end up putting ignorant men in charge. It is a rare individual who manages to rise to power in such a situation and actually uplift the conditions of the people under his charge.
#19  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 1 Ditto
Batmantis25
The more I think about this and talk to Muslims about this the more I realize that these extremists are not all that "Extreme."

Firstly, violent teachings and messages exist in the Koran, and there is no getting around that fact. Most knowledgeable Muslims will admit this, just as most knowledgeable Jews and Christians will admit that violent teachings and messages occur in the Old Testament. So, there really is no debate on that matter.
The debate lies on what teachings and messages we should take stock in now. Simply, one group thinks that the violence which is evidenced in the Koran and early histories of Islam is justified right now due to political and military aggression against their lands and peoples.
One other group says that the peaceful messages which also feature in the Koran are the only way to make progress socially and spiritually and basically say that the violent methods are only justified (if ever) in very extreme circumstances. It's not as if these "extremists" completely twist the Koran and Islam all the time (even though they do some of the time, and it depends on the teacher) rather they simply interpret the times as a justification for the violent methods which are evidenced in their scriptures.

I think that's crucial to understanding why Muslim solidarity still, by and large, exists in the world. When we would say that most moderate Muslims should completely alienate the "extremists" they still understand that their justification is drawn from the same book, even if their interpretation of the times comes from a different process of thought.

Just some ponderings on the matter...

Post edited 9/15/06 11:16AM
#20  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
NaraVara Forum Mod
In reply to Batmantis25, #21:

Agreed. All religions have passages advocating violence as well as peaceful conciliation. It is up to the individual to determine which course of action is most appropriate in the context of the times. Which will produce the better result and a more harmonious society?

An example is Hinduism. The main thesis of Hindu morality, the Bhagavad Gita, is a long song describing why the prince, Arjuna, must go to war and kill his brothers, uncles, and cousins despite the fact that most of them are virtuous and just men who do not deserve any suffering. Arjuna refuses to do it, but Krishna tells him that it is his duty to fight in the pursuit of Dharma, regardless of the personal cost.
This is what Gandhi read as a reference to his formulation of non-violent resistence. He realized that underlying Krishna's orders to go and fight was the idea that Arjuna must fight without malice or ill-will towards the people he is fighting. He does it out of duty and not from inflamed passions. That is why he decided on non-violence. He knew that killing people would just end up increasing malice and resentment on both sides and be contrary to the Dharma.

It's the same as St. Augustine's Just War Theory. "The peace that prevails after the war must be preferable to the peace that would prevail if war was avoided."
#21  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote  |  + 2 Cool
Drizztd44
In reply to sargez117234, #3:

Have you read the bible? That has some outlandish stuff in it.
#22  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
halgameguru
i suddenly wish we had a compendium of sleepy's quotes... for easy access...
#23  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
rencarnacion
i am curiously wondering if sleepy's death was faked so he can let himself off from this forum....
#24  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
TheClash
In reply to rencarnacion, #25:

What like Darkfae?

I think that by now, if it had been faked someone would have looked into it and verified by other concerned members.

The Darkfae incident came under suspicion by many very quickly, so I personally would doubt that had happened.
#25  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Mr_Jingoism
In reply to TheClash, #26:

I heard a different story. Duste told me via PMs that he came he had suspician about Darkfae and made a posting about it. When he did he got neg-bombed worse than Joking clown. He had recieved a little some support (I think Lethal was one of them) and gradually it came to realization accross RVB. Ask him about it.
#26  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
TheClash
In reply to Mr_Jingoism, #27:

I don't have to ask him about it, I was involved in more than a few of those conversations. There were a few of us that had thought it was suspicious. Duste deserves credit for bringing about an open debate about it and alot of evidence to light.

Alot of personal messages went back and forth about the subject.
#27  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Duste Sponsor
In reply to TheClash, #28:

Clash is right; the PM's were flowing, I only made a thread.
#28  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
appledude212
In reply to LOST687, #2:

HAHA, OH LAWD.
#29  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
Batmantis25
Yeah, I'm sure that Sleepy, dead or alive, would really enjoy us talking about the Darkfae incident in the Islam thread.
#30  Posted 7 years ago  |  Reply  |  Quote
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