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Ok, stay with me hereI look at it this way: If you're willing to call someone who is having sex with people of their own sex a homosexual and create social identity for it then why not do it for other sins? Why don't we have "rapist day" at Disney? Why not have "adultery pride week"? I mean, I'm pretty sure that there are more guys who have cheated on their wives/girlfriends than have opted to have sex with Uncle Charley. Sure, there are a lot of people who would oppose it, but really - where's the problem? Are you so bigoted that you would not take your grandmother to a pedophile pride day?
This is what we're moving toward in our culture. If asked people will tell you that they generally believe in Heaven and that God will send them there. When asked why they think God will send them to Heaven it's because they're "good people".
"Good people"
Looking at that, if everyone thinks they're good enough to go to Heaven then Jesus didn't have to die at all. Unfortunately, Jesus DID have to die for us and we're not good people. The purpose of the 10 commandments isn't that we should follow them but to show us God's standard for purity and to show you that you're incapable of fulfilling it. The 10 commandments are broken into 3 sections: God, you, and others.
For example, here's the list (the real list, not the Catholic list):
1) “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. “You shall have no other gods before Me.
2) “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
3) “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. 4) “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5) “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
6) “You shall not murder.
7) “You shall not commit adultery.
8) “You shall not steal.
9) “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10) “You shall not covet your neighborâ€s house; you shall not covet your neighborâ€s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighborâ€s.€
~ Exodus 20:2-17 :: KJV These have been broken into the 3 sections:
GOD YOU OTHERS
This is where Jesus's commandment work into it.A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.â€
~ John 13:34-35 :: KJV If you love one another as Christ loves you, you won't want to do the things listed in "others", you won't want to do the things to God, who first loved you, even while you were unaware of His love for you. Knowing His love, you won't want to do things against Him and therefore the first 3 are out and then knowing that He loves us and needs us to rest in Him and take time to worship Him then the 4th commandment is displayed here.
The issue that that people will look at those commandments and forget that Jesus asked us to REPENT of our sins. This means to turn away from our sins - to do a "180" and go from them to God. In that, in the repentance of each sin as the Holy Spirit brings them to the top of your thoughts while you are in that prayer to God, you are freed from them. Sure, as things are with all habits, you will still tend to go back to them but you can repent again and God will forgive them, then you work on not falling into them again. The way to do that is to trust in Jesus Christ, to trust in His death on the cross to pay the price for your sins so that you won't go to Hell. When those things are resolved, when your debt has been paid, and when you put your faith in Christ and know that it has already been taken care of, you know that you can handle not doing it anymore. Even if it takes you 3 of 4 times of trying, you will stop doing the sins that have been separating you from the life that God has planned for you.
It just takes a little faith.
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I've said this same thing many times. Why not just allow all of these things to become mainstream.....
Unfortunately, the Bible tells me that's exactly what will happen...
Now, lets go one step further and distinguish between homosexual behaviour and homosexuality itself. There is a difference. A big one. Homosexuality is the state of being attracted to those of the same sex. There are a few genetic and chemical markers associated with being gay, and a fair few biological trends (such as the 2D:4D finger ratio). That is not to mention the apparently universality of it in the animal kingdom. This is something that does occur naturally in both humans and animals.
Now, homosexual behaviour can be denied, in much the same way you could turn away from your wife and lead a life of celibacy. Not exactly a fulfilled life, or a loving one, but a life, maybe. But homosexual tendencies themselves can't be as easily denied. There are prominent ex-gay ministers who, despite claiming to be 'healed', still refuse to come into any contact with anything that may encourage them to backslide and give into their actual inclination. Among those who claim to have been healed, suicide, alcoholism and other mental health problems show a sharp increase.
Imagine being told that you can 'pray away the gay' if only your faith is strong enough, if only you want it enough. For a youth brought up in a strict Christian family who finds himself gay, there would be nothing so distressing as finding that, for you, God just isn't there as you can't escape how you are. These programs are the least loving thing you could ever put someone through - not only making them hate who they are, but making them think that God does too.
There is no secular case to be made against homosexuality. There is no reason to hate it. There is no reason to fight it. Doing so has hurt millions of people and millions of families.
Same thing with adultery.
Most importantly, it's still a sin against God.
Physical harm? Mental harm? I have read the studies, checked the papers, and there is no evidence of either.
Spiritual harm? That one comes down to personal beliefs. I know a lot of people who would argue against it, and not all of them atheist. Heck, one of my girlfriends best friends is thinking of going into the church, and she is bisexual. Already published in a theological magazine actually. There is rather more grey area than most people make out.
The fact remains, the pressure put on gay people to 'repent and change', which is impossible, causes direct physical and mental harm. The attacks made against the gay community and gay couples, and attempts to make them into second class citizens, has harmed and damaged thousands of families and children. Attempts to restrict gay couples rights have harmed the very institution of marriage that they were supposedly trying to protect. Knee jerk reactions against homosexuality are damaging. Homosexuality isn't.
Before you say anything about the source of the information (NARTH), read the article in its entirety and review the resources used. Most (admittedly not all) are independent research papers and books.
Regarding your friend, I fully admit that there are a lot of places where she can join and even pastor her own church. Anglican and Universalist Unitarian churches are all over the map of sexual and moral inclusion. They fully admit that the idea of "sin" in their view is nonsensical. If you're looking for a "religion" and not for God then go right ahead and start by looking for one that fits all your views and where you feel comfortable doing whatever you want. If you want to seek God, get a Bible and start reading in John. God doesn't exist to make us happy or to allow us to do whatever we want. That's a choice He's given us.
Post edited 7/23/07 6:43AM
The proper response is to read the Bible with a full understanding of hermaneutics (understanding of how to read and interpret historical documents) and to take what it says at face value, without imposing our own belief system or implied views. If one were to read the Bible it would prompt a completely different response. The issue here is that people are imposing their own views and agendas. That's where the churches are coming from now that are focused on entertaining or bringing people in, not on worshiping God or teaching the word accurately. They have sermons on how to fix your finances or how to have a better sex life. If someone were to have the Bible properly, these issues may not have even come up.
I never said that HIV wasn't a problem. But that isn't a problem caused by homosexuality - it is a problem caused by lack of sex education and public awareness of HIV and the related issues. Incidentally, that is what I was talking about before. Because of the extremely loud opposition to any sort of sex ed in schools, and particularly sex ed that deals with gay or non-reproductive sex, people who engage in such practices are often woefully uninformed.
Incidentally, this is not solely a problem with gays. The single group with the greatest increase in HIV rates are poor female minorities. The education and awareness just isn't there. And it isn't just in the USA either. There does need to be a worldwide movement against HIV. But that won't be managed if the gay community is constantly demonised as the cause of the disease, as they have been in the past.
As for my friend, she is currently studying theology at university. I believe she has a stronger grasp of the bible than you or I. Heck, she has been steeped in religion since she was a young child (unlike the USA, we have no separation of church and state here, so we have bible classes in public school with the effect that those of us who reject religion know exactly what we are turning away from).
One anecdote from her about what happened when she went to her Minister for advice and guidance. He referred her to a particular passage. 1 Corinthians 13. For some reason, he believed that passage to be the most important for anyone confused in issues of the heart.
In reply to Rental01, #9:The problem I have with this argument is quite simple. It suggests that people who have problems have them because they haven't read the bible correctly, or their faith isn't strong enough. Frankly, I have not seen this idea supported in any of my readings, in any of my debates. It is what props up the 'prosperity gospel' teachings, and what has turned the church away from missionary and charity work towards supposedly evangelical efforts that have zero chance of reaching anyone in actual need.
Add to that that most of those who I see claiming 'literal' or even 'common sense' readings of the bible are utterly deluded. They read the old testament with no knowledge of the actual texts, and so find literal stories that are absolutely insane (ever heard someone claim that the Behemoth, a cultural symbol from the time of writing, is actually a dinosaur?). Or they read the New Testament, but only a verse at a time, or purposefully choosing what parts to label as metaphorical and which parts literal to support a conclusion they came to from an unrelated teaching. Heck, people even come to believe in insane and convoluted PMD time lines of how the world will end based off the idea that seven churches (that literally existed) actually represent seven time periods.
Excuse me if I am a little discouraged by peoples attempts to decode the bible, and would rather trust in those who had studied it and are steeped in the theological issues.
Read Romans 1-3 and tell me what you think it means.
I prefer to use resources like the Blue Letter Bible which has a large list of commentaries and audio/video resources available for the reader.
re: the "behemoth": would you have preferred if they had used the term "brontosaurus"? 'Cause that word wasn't invented yet.
It is in no small way the core of Jesus message. Yet it isn't the simple acceptance of that message, it is the total surrender to that core, the total abandon to love for all people. If you could just substitute the term there for Jesus alone, you would totally lose the message. The requirement to accept Jesus is expanded upon at length elsewhere. Here is the explanation on how to emulate Jesus. How to go beyond simply saved and become, in a word, Christlike.
But I digress.
Reading Romans in context, I get the start of a letter where Paul is trying to describe behaviour that the people would have found destructive, immoral and frowned upon. Same sex relationships, fruitless and against the common culture at the time, would have been such a strong example.
In no small way, Paul is addressing those from the Jewish traditions, who held homosexuality as one of the greatest sins possible. Combine that with an emphasis on having children and lineages, and peoples (particularly womens) worth being centred in their offspring. If you wanted to reach the depths of disgust in such groups, to invent the world most depraved and self-destructive societies, universal, solely homosexual behaviour would be a good way.
In regards to the Behemoth, you have got to be joking.
In that same tone, I would like to address your skewed view of Romans. Paul is expressing the core sins that people were involved in, lost in their sins and lost forever from the hope of salvation until they repented from their sins and turned to God. Yes, God forgives all sins but He's not an idiot. He's not going to forgive everyone all at once and allow people to continue to blaspheme His holy name and treat others like garbage. That would be out of character of a perfect and just God. In the same way, those who refuse to turn from their sins are damned to hell. God doesn't care about societal views on His laws. He cares about a right response to the gospel.
Any "god" who cannot create our universe and who cannot create the world in 6 days is no god I want to worship. My God is the God of Isaac, Abraham, and Jacob; the same God who spoke and the universe burst into existence and the same God who is coming again to take His followers, those who have turned from their sins and who have turned in a right response to their Creator. He is not a god that any society, leader, or pope can control, but the God who knows all hearts and despite our hatred of Him and all the He represents, He still sent His son to die on a cross, sacrificially - as the passover lamb in Egypt gave its life for the lives of the family that it lived with. In His resurrection He showed His power over the grave and gave strength to His followers. He loves all people, regardless of our sins. but still requires our repentance. There are no sins that are too big for God to handle but He can't take them if you don't give them. He won't force you to love Him in the same way that He won't force you to respond to Him in love. It was once said that the doors of Hell are locked on the inside - which side of the doors are you on?
Behemoth, Leviathon... isn't there a thrid one? Or am I mixing in other religions now?
Jesus > Roboghandi