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Discussion of gender and related issues

Posts (8)

  • Splee_Spree

    Splee_Spree YOUR AD HERE

    #33630264 - 2 years ago

    I'm creating this thread because of a good discussion we've had in another thread. This is a topic that generates enough discussion that I think it warrants its own thread, which will also help prevent other threads from getting too off track. I apologize if someone has already made a thread like this, but with the forums all out of whack and anachronistic, it's hard to tell. 

  • Splee_Spree

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    #33630651 - 2 years ago

    In reply to AgentValkyrie

    Yeah, gender is a pretty large topic these days so making a separate thread for it was probably a really good call. So, where do we want to start? And what sort of topics do you want to hit on or avoid if possible? For example avoiding or discussing gender in consumer products (e.g. Pink "women's" razors) 



    I suppose I was still thinking about the nature of gender itself, though any discussion that is related can go here. I think the gendered products would fall under "related issues". So you can start with that if you wanted to.

  • Treanomaly

    Treanomaly Absolute Travist

    #33630668 - 2 years ago

    This sparked from the discussion about a couple who fought to have their child listed with no gender on their birth certificate and the ramifications of such a decision. 

    My main issue with this is it's an attempt to make gender a pointless definition but their choice could make it more of an issue for the child in the future. Not happy with my description there. Their attempt to not make it relevant makes it relevant by making something that wouldn't really be a topic, a topic. I could go on but I'll save that for other opinions.

  • DriveByDogs

    DriveByDogs

    #33630730 - 2 years ago

    In reply to Treanomaly The biggest issue with the Birth Certificate conversation is less a conversation about gender equality and more of a conversation about health. In my opinion one of the primary reasons for birth certificates existing is so you can track what diseases you are more susceptible to when speaking in relevance to heredity. There is no problem in having the names of your guardians on your birth certificate. The problem is your biological parents being absent from said certificate. I am all in favor of an all inclusive document including all parties so we can be accepting and socially responsible.

  • Treanomaly

    Treanomaly Absolute Travist

    #33631901 - 2 years ago

    In reply to AgentValkyrie

    While yes I agree in cases the gender is ambiguous. This particular case involved the parent only wanting the child to not be "restricted by gender stereotypes" or "defined by a gender that's placed upon them". While I agree that gender should be a divide, as in neither gender should have greater importance than another, the parent is making something she doesn't want to important important through her actions. Like you said though, if they want to change it later, they should be able to change it. I'll be interested to see that conversation if the child grows up and wants their gender defined on their birth certificate. Whether the parent will protest their own child's choice.

  • Treanomaly

    Treanomaly Absolute Travist

    #33631911 - 2 years ago

    I think it just comes down to, make it an issue if it becomes an issue rather than before it is an issue

  • Splee_Spree

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    #33640811 - 2 years ago

    So there was a debate on another site where someone kept trying to compare the transgender issue with gay rights, and I disagreed. Here is what I wrote, which is basically my summary of my understanding of gender based on the definition that people seem to be using these days:


    This is why I don't like people comparing the gender debate to the gay rights debate. Gender is in no way a parallel to sexual orientation. For years, gay rights activists have argued that being gay is not a choice. That is very basis of all of their arguments and is why they have won. It's biological.


    With gender, on the other hand, we're now being told that not only is it not directly tied to biology (which at least is something that you can argue), but it is ENTIRELY subjective and is simply based upon your whim in that moment. Most of the laws being proposed suggest that you can invent whatever gender you feel like and change it as often as you please, and the only basis for determining what your gender is is simply whatever you decide it to be. Whatever you want it to be. 


    But this is a problem. Because if gender is a set of behaviors as these proponents claim, then you cannot simply identify as a one gender simply because you want to. Your gender is determined by your behavior. 

    So who judges this? Who REALLY determines your gender identity at the end of the day? The answer: society. Gender identity is not something you simply choose. It's a negotiated agreement between you and society. Your behaviors, as judged by society, determine your gender. This is why it's ridiculous to propose a million unique genders, because the vast majority of society will never learn them and thus they won't truly exist. Because society is what dictates your gender. 

    So for example, if there is a girl who walks like someone of the female gender, talks like someone of the female gender, dresses like someone of the female gender, etc., but then insists on people identifying her as male, then she has made that gender identity useless and pointless. Similarly, if she makes up a gender and insists society treat her as such, this is also useless because society doesn't recognize that gender. They don't know how to identify the gender without you explicitly telling them, and they don't know how to treat you in response. So at that point, gender has become nothing but a word. It has no purpose whatsoever. 


    So why do male and female genders exists across basically every human society that ever developed? Why those two? Well, turns out, gender is related to biology. Obviously it's not entirely biology if it's a social construct, but when you have two sexes with different biology, it's hardly surprising that this is going to create two sets of societal behaviors and rituals. 


    Because if we look at the average woman and average man, regardless of what society they come from, there are some significant biologically determined differences in average behavior. It doesn't mean there won't be exceptions in individual categories. But if you're a woman, you'll probably meet the vast majority of traits of the female gender, and the same with men and the male gender. We can say gender is not a perfect representation of sex, as gender does vary slightly among different cultures, but not much. 


    So if you believe gender is a social construct, but don't believe you are required to act and behave a certain way to be a certain gender, then you should be arguing for people to stop using genders altogether. Because at that point they're words that have no meaning, much less any purpose. The same goes for all of the newly invented genders of a hundred variety. You should, if anything, be arguing that people see you as genderless. Even that won't probably work because society will likely observe you and realize that you do seem to fall into one of the two genders, but at least it's theoretically plausible. 


  • JeromePorkinsenson

    JeromePorkinsenson FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33642064 - 2 years ago

    In reply to Treanomaly


    This sparked from the discussion about a couple who fought to have their child listed with no gender on their birth certificate and the ramifications of such a decision. 

    There are people born that aren't physically one or the other.  Sometimes the switches in someones development just don't get flipped in the typical way.  There is a reason why that field should remain, but to make a statement isn't it.