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Pyrrha Nikos general discussion

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  • FettucCR

    FettucCR

    #33740270 - 6 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Yeah, thought so. Bad thing, though. I kinda liked Glynda.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33740271 - 6 months ago

    In reply to FettucCR

    They may recast or maybe they managed to patch things up enough to work on this but I doubt it.

    Recast is the most likely I feel

  • JustVlad

    JustVlad FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Sponsor

    #33740274 - 6 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    In reply to FettucCR

    Glynda may not be a thing her va went off the deep end on Twitter and attacked barb and Ashley so chances of her coming back are slim unless they recast.

    From my phone 

    Wait what? Kathleen went off on them? 

  • Delicieuxz

    Delicieuxz

    #33740275 - 6 months ago

    The deaths of both Pyrrha Nikos and Penny Polendina were there for shock value only, and are clear cases of being bankrupt on ideas. The whole series died after season 3, and the disrespectful way these characters were treated, being thrown under the bus in a jump-the-shark effort is a big part of why.


    I think Pyrrha Nikos might come back. She has the most heart in the show, IMO, and the series is empty without her.


    Well, not just because of her absence. The series lost its spirit after season 3. I hope that wasn't on purpose, like some dumb nerd trope of thinking that suddenly making everything seem "dark" just for the sake of making everything "dark" without reason is impressive for the nth time... because that effort also made the series lose what made it great and swapped out awesome excitement for down-graded just watching through the episodes hoping that the show recovers some of its spark.


    Seriously, after season 3, RWBY became super tropey, derivative of tropes and cliches in its progression, encounters, and dialog. Did Monty handle all the writing before season 3?


    Pyrrha Nikos didn't die, I'm sure of that. The writing ability of the RT team did, however, and the representation of Pyrrha's character and role was thrown under the bus to take the fall.


    Even now, she can come back in a variety of ways. But, I think RWBY should be rebooted from the 2nd to last episode in the 3rd season, before the heart and soul of the show died, and carried on from there in a way that honours what RWBY really is meant to be.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33740277 - 6 months ago


    In reply to JustVlad

    OH YEAH it was on international women's day too if I recall right.

    It was nasty she basically implied Ashley slept her way to her position and I am not sure what she said about Barb but I know something was said.

    Its been about a year if not more and I dont think she has voiced anyone for RT since.

  • JustVlad

    JustVlad FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Sponsor

    #33740284 - 6 months ago

    In reply to revanninja


    Totally missed that. It's so odd seeing how she has been involved with RT since Season 1 of RvB. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33740285 - 6 months ago

    In reply to JustVlad

    Not really She has had a beef with RT for awhile now and I dont know the whole details but I know some of it started with Barb.

    There is a charity thing Kathleen did every year but Barb was hired as their community manager and she went as her job and Kathleen has held that against her ever since.

    And the friction built until we got the blow up and every thing.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33740300 - 6 months ago

    RWBY is actually lucky.


    What about spreading the following among the 8 characters of RWBY and JNPR.


    * Just plain dead, terminally

    * Just plain dead, terminally

    * Killed, revived

    * Paraplegic (no chicken out motorized limb replacements)

    * Dying (volume 5 cliffhanger)


    That's a real high threat environment.


    And since I am into Black Humour, I will now serve this menu.


    Ren, dead (Eddard)

    Blake, dead (Robb)

    Nora, killed - revived (Catelyn)

    Jaune, paraplegic (Brandon)

    Pyrrha, dying (Jon)

    Weiss, unscathed (Sansa)

    Yang, unscathed (Arya)

    Ruby, unscathed (Rickon)


    That's the books, not the TV-series.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33740303 - 6 months ago

    In reply to revanninja


    (1) I agree that it would be extremely demanding to evacuate Maiden powers to a desired person by thought while being hacked to pieces, this will also not be possible if the last strike comes with overkill (e.g. beheading). But in this world you can have a foldable minigun in your handbag including several thousand rounds. So it has some credit to play it safe and use this power grabber, while not killing the maiden immediately.

    Obviously this was introduced to get to the half-maiden conflict.

    And Raven if pinned down, as a supercharacter might transfer to her daughter.


    (2) If you assume, that it is unlikely to evacuate the Maiden Powers, getting them for your team (or you, if alone) and removing them from the opposition is the same. If evacuation is possible you also fail both ways. There is no denying, someone will get the Powers no matter what you do. Safely storing away is not working.


    (3) My personal scoring:

    An A character e.g. Cinder withoud maiden powers = 100

    A B character like Mercury/Emerald = 70

    Kill team then has 240, so Amber at about 200.

    Cinder Maiden is much stronger: 300

    Ozpin is a unique character so 150 or more.

    Pyrrha is extremely talented although not experienced, was duped by Emerald, category C: 50

    So if Ozpin is at 250, together they would stall Cinder. If he is at 200, they both go down. Ozpin at 275 Cinder loses.

    Bringing up Qrow, Glynda and the two teachers at a combined 340, Cinder loses. 


    (4) Motive/Decision making

    Knocking out CInder and retrieving the Maiden Powers is a worthy objetive. If and how you try it, is a question of the success chance and cost. 300 against 50 is not good, but we do not know what Pyrrha projected (my numbers ... well I made them up). In history there are battles where even generals believed to be well above average wrecked their armies when trying to force something. Eg. Lee at Gettysburg. She was under extreme psychological pressure and finally "master-tactitian" was not one of her talents.


    (5) I personally do not like revive. This is chickening out, so that the author can have the shock moment and keep the character. Furthermore it ruins "dangerous" athmosphere and if another main character is getting into danger, you know that there is one more try.

    Dissolving into sparks as a protagonist is also not a confirmed kill, but much more dead than falling out of sight as a villain.

    They already revived Ozpin, although this has limitations. And Penny has two credible ways of reappearing. Just build another and/or find the girl on which its chassis was modeled. Bringing back all of them would be lame.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33740308 - 6 months ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    Really doesnt seem likely to be honest its WAY too hard to control your thoughts when in shock and I know that for a fact.


    Okay you keep using Evacuation and that isnt the correct term. Its more transfer since evacuation means getting it to a safe place which depending on who it goes to may not be someone safe.

    No getting it for your team and removing it from someone elses is not the same.

    One means YOU have the power now while the other means NEITHER side has it.

    So no not the same.


    Your scoring makes no sense.

    As situations control a lot of how a person presents or can use their power.

    Take Pyrrha she wasnt aware Emerald was doing that NO ONE was. So you are holding her to a standard everyone failed at. That is actually a plot point.

    You are just giving numbers that dont mean anything at all and really have no weight to them as battles are not just a game of numbers but also tactics will and so forth.


    Yes you made up the numbers and it shows.

    No you just ASSUME its not we really dont know what Pyrrha's tactical ability is. Jaune was picked because Ozpin clearly was planning something with him. 

    The choice to go up there was stupid as the situation stood but a minor change such as making sure backup was on the way then its not a dumb choice and is in fact tactically smart. 

    The tower was not a well written choice I am in agreement there but you are taking it to mean a LOT of things that arent true or we know nothing about.


    Okay you dont like revive that is you. I have read enough to know its a case by case and no it doesnt ruin dangerous because the method of revival MATTERS. if the revival was a one shot deal then dangerous still stands but if it can be repeated then it can ruin it depending on the story and what they are aiming at.

    No sorry but dissolving like that with a power never before seen used nor repeated is NOT a confirmed kill that is the complete oppisite its the warning flag that says hey something is up especially when all the other kills havent done that.

    No not Lame it just means they need to handle it with care and not going randomly doing things. For example Penny can be brought back but not be penny which people have discussed. Ozpin isnt really revived he is more a lingering ghost who based on what the dialogue has said WILL merge with Oscar and there will only be Oscar with ozpin's collective memory.


    So no not lame at all. Just needs careful writing.

  • Ace-of-Rogues

    Ace-of-Rogues FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Main Weapon: Rapier Wit

    #33740312 - 6 months ago

    In reply to Delicieuxz

    Yes, Penny was definitely killed for shock value, but that was exactly what Cinder was going for. Can you think of a bigger shock than seeing one combatant kill another in what is supposed to be a friendly match, only to find out that the combatant who was killed was actually a robot the whole time? "Shocking" really doesn't feel like a strong enough descriptor for it. Given what Cinder had planned and the access she had, Penny's death was a foregone conclusion as soon as she reached the final round. Cinder not only got more shock value than she could have dreamed but also got the opportunity to remove what could have been a valuable resource from Ozpin's side of the war.


    As for Pyrrha, while there definitely were other directions they could have taken the Fall of Beacon in that didn't involve her death, I think it was the best way they had to trigger the Silver Eyes (I've got mixed deus ex machina thoughts about them but that's a different matter altogether). If we assume that it would take an extreme emotional stressor to trigger the Silver Eyes then there are only a handful of options to begin with. 


    Death of a loved one is arguably the classic stressor but the only two definite loved ones we have at present are Yang and Qrow, and since Yang is both a title character and involved in a separate plot-line she's out of the running and since Qrow was just introduced this Volume that would feel like the "introduce a character just to kill them" trope and he has a lot he needs to do in the next two Volumes so he's out too. Another stressor that is used somewhat frequently is righteous anger, like when Goku went Super Saiyan for the first time, but that doesn't really fit Ruby's personality, and so trying it then would have felt forced. Extreme injury is an option, but Yang had already been maimed by this point and given what Ruby would have been up against it would hard to plausibly write a way for her to be badly injured without being outright killed. Thus we come to the death of a close friend.


    The obvious choice for a close friend would be a teammate, but since the series is named for the team we can reasonably assume they have plot armor at this point. Beyond that the only real close friends of Ruby's we've seen who haven't already been killed are Team JNPR. From among them I would say Nora and Ren are off the table simply because they haven't played much of a role in the core story so far and while Ruby is friendly with them they don't seem particularly close, all of which would work against creating a strong and impactful death. Thus we come down to Jaune and Pyrrha. I actually feel that the death scene would have worked about as well if they replaced Pyrrha with Jaune, but the thing is I don't think Pyrrha would have contributed as much to the story going forward. We've seen Jaune question the motives of Ozpin and his faction in the past two Volumes and I think that is an important and necessary role for a character to have at this point and one that I don't think Pyrrha would have been able to fill. I think Jaune's death would have led to her fully aligning herself with Oz in order to avenge Jaune and oppose Salem. While that wouldn't have been a bad thing for her character, I think the cast as a whole does need a loyal opposition to question Oz and his motives. Thus Pyrrha is the best candidate for the close friend who dies to trigger the Silver Eyes.


    That concludes my lecture, class is dismissed, please be ready for a quiz at the start of our next class.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33740313 - 6 months ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    No the issue with that is we dont know what the triggers are it doesnt seem to need that emotion on that level. Ruby called forth the SE when Jaune LOOKED like he was going to be killed.

    Which kills your whole needs a friend to die as it wasnt actually death but instead what Ruby FEELS that is more important.

    And its actually easy to create that situation where ruby THINKS someone is dead when they arent.


    Also Pyrrha has a LOT to contribute.

    Her rep would be in tatters over Penny and the whole thing. She also killed someone which she clearly hasnt done before so Pyrrha would have to deal with that.

    Then there is the fact since Pyrrha was offered the Maiden power but was hestitant on accepting it due to method she would be also feeling guilt over that and wondering if she could have done something.

    And that is just the easy stuff.


    People are just too quick to act like it can ONLY be done one way or someone cant have issues from the fallout of a choice.

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33740314 - 6 months ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues "Best candidate" my ass. She has to come back.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33740315 - 6 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    I have the impression, that we have the same assumption on controlling the receiving person by thought. It will be difficult bordering on impossible. But in my opinion not difficult enough, not to tempt a scriptwriter.

    I do not want to discuss the wording. The power is always transferred to someone. Could be a third party like Raven. But with the consensus on controlling the receiving person while under attack (very unlikely) the power usually goes to the attackers. Here you can pull a slapstick moment by using an all male attack team, or the maiden can eliminate all female attack team members on purpose.


    The scoring is not intended to predict sure victory. An we do not have many fight results, so you can also use names instead. Amber could not defeat Cinder + Mercury + Emerald, we do not know how close it was, and there may have been bad luck, so the same outcome would not be guaranteed if the same parties fought again.

    The question is: Is it possible to summon and deploy a team of characters who can defeat Cinder at an acceptable cost (preferably no fatalities).


    The bring-back thing ... we did not see many bodies/corpses, which would the confirmed kill variant. Actually only Penny, and it is a technical thing. Computers are capable of full cold start. If they backed up regularly they would be able to rebuild/repair the full Penny minus a few hours of memory. The real question is, why build killbots with the appearance of a teenage girl

    If you interpret the sparks as something like beaming, then it is most likely that cinder controlled the destination which would not be so nice (Dr. Watts illegal laboratory (organ music and wild laughter)?)

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33740316 - 6 months ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    In short:

    You want to demonstrate that it is dangerous out there and anybody can get killed. Because now school is over and it gets into war.

    No lowly guards.

    You do not dare to touch the core team.

    So it is the extended team.

    Ren and Nora have pair protection.

    Jaune has far more potential, because he is not so far advanced in his skills.

    To show it is really dangerous, go for the most powerful character

    Two crosshairs on Pyrrha.

    Then it is only how ...

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33740317 - 6 months ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    Based on what we have seen and been told I Disagree I think it is too difficult to expect a dying person to hold a person in their thoughts all the way up to their last breath because that is what it means to do that. I think its SUPER difficult which is WHY Ozpin never even brings it up.

    Wording is important because it implies a LOT of things and says or gives meaning when there may not be one.

    The All male isnt slap stick they addressed it. Dude it goes completely random same if its someone who is too old which Raven is now. She was on the edge of being too old when it happened as far as we can tell.


    No there isnt because that assumes that Cinder is going to stay there. She isnt stupid if she sees its going to go bad she is going to run we saw that with the break in during the dance. She ran rather then fight Ruby when the elevator came up because it didnt work for her plan.

    With Raven she should have run but the Maiden power and relic were key to the plan so it was need out weighted things.


    Uhm yes we have. We have tukson, we have the hunter in vol 4, we have Sienna, we have Leo. There is a lot of confirmed kills in RWBY.

    Pyrrha stands out because of the others.

    That assumes they can do that with her memories keep in mind Penny isnt just a robot she has aura which may play more factors then we realize. 

    As for the appearance simple ease of intergrating with society. She can freely move through without bringing unwanted attention.

    I dont know if its teleportation or not I know FFXV which Monty was a fan of the Final Fantasy Series 8 being his stated favorite which has a LOT of cheating fate and looks like death when its not in it. But FFXV has a warp strike ability which breaks the person down into particles and then rebuilds them at their weapon with a sizzling sound effect and burning ember effect on them.

    tumblr_inline_ocvxieBrd11r1nuev_540.gif

    tumblr_inline_ocvxij6juB1r1nuev_540.gif

    tumblr_inline_ofuh15hMbS1r68e2v_500.gif


    Could something like this be at work? Maybe maybe not but when you get weird things that arent normal with things like gods divine relics and so forth we should start going hmmmm.

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33740322 - 6 months ago

    In reply to arklaynorth Not just me.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33740323 - 6 months ago

    In reply to NickPotterfi

    In reply to arklaynorth

    Nick is correct on this one Arklaynorth a lot of people DO want Pyrrha back I just saw a tumblr post on this very matter not too long ago.

    People still miss her and want her back.

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33740324 - 6 months ago

    In reply to revanninja Yes. Thank you. What they did with her in volume 3 was the whole reason I went on a rant on here. My frustration since volume 3.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33740327 - 6 months ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    "In short:

    You want to demonstrate that it is dangerous out there and anybody can get killed. Because now school is over and it gets into war.

    No lowly guards.

    You do not dare to touch the core team."

    Please note the two parts of your post that I have bolded.  They directly contradict each other.  A writer CANNOT have an "anyone can die" setting, then spare the title characters.  If you do not dare to touch the core team, then it is NEVER going to be an "anyone can die" setting.

    Thanks for playing.  You show much knowledge of popular fiction trends, but not much else.

  • Ace-of-Rogues

    Ace-of-Rogues FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Main Weapon: Rapier Wit

    #33740329 - 6 months ago

    In reply to NickPotterfi


    I was not trying to say that she had to stay dead, but rather that I felt that killing her was the most effective option they had to trigger Silver Eyes within the context of where the story was at that point.


    In reply to revanninja

    I acknowledge there was a lot that could have been done with Pyrrha if she had stayed alive, but what I was saying is that she wouldn't make a good loyal opposition character in my opinion, and I feel that having one is important when you have a shadowy organization that is ostensibly run by the good guys. Also, yes a fake-out was an option I didn't consider, at least in part because I am not a fan of them. Still, in that case several of my arguments for character selection still apply if the fake-out was going to be at all believable for the audience instead of being a repeat (? prequel? instance #0?) of Weiss being impaled by Cinder and all the characters going "Nooo!" while we went "Really? You expect us to believe she's in real danger?". 


    Additionally, in that case Jaune doesn't have such a huge problem with Oz so we are down our only loyal opposition character. I acknowledge that such a character is not essential but if nothing else they probably need one to effectively answer the various "is Oz secretly evil" or "is Oz actually good for Remnant" theories and questions that have been floating around since the "Oz-luminate" was revealed. Finally "he was only mostly dead" fake-outs aren't always well received so they might have felt a real death was a safer play.


    I agree that there are always several choices, I was just trying to point out that killing Pyrrha seemed to me to be the most effective way for them to trigger Silver Eyes and advance the story towards Volumes 4 & 5. If they had done it a different way I probably would have been fine with that. I'm not trying to say that was the only way it could have been done, I am defending the choice that was made. I acknowledge that this is in the end my personal opinion and in no way absolute fact.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33740330 - 6 months ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    Not true. The lose of her rep and all that could make pyrrha just question everything. It could throw her heavily into dark mistrustful situations because of her guilt eating away at her.


    Jaune is smart he is going to question it especially because they tried to use Pyrrha and he isnt going to be happy about that.

    No I think the "death" is actually them doing something else and letting the audience THINK its a death. Not an uncommon tactic with writers.


    I personally feel the choice was bad for a lot of reasons if that is what they were going for but I have seen enough to know her and cinder was planned before the actual event. Monty had a mock up of the event using costumes and all that done back before vol 3 I think it was even vol 1 and he said to the person he didnt know where it was going to be or even how but this is the scene.


    That tells me the event is the important part the rest is window dressing and is one of the MANY reasons why I think something is up.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33740331 - 6 months ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    And there is the problem: you defend the actions of the writers, no matter how ineffective they were.  And fake-out deaths are only not well-received because of the decreasing intelligence of audiences in general.  RWBY's fanbase isn't the disease, it's just the most prominent symptom.

  • Ace-of-Rogues

    Ace-of-Rogues FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Main Weapon: Rapier Wit

    #33740332 - 6 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    And here I thought the problem was that different people have different opinions.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33740336 - 6 months ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    And when the "opinion" receives hard fact that backs it up and effectively disproves the others, then the others cease to hold any value.  What does it say then of those who continue to hold value in the valueless? "Defending the choice that was made" is an implicit "Appeal to the Authority" logical fallacy.  Because the author did a thing in no way means it was the most effective thing to do.  And in general, the concept that "different people have different opinions" and the implicit idea that they shouldn't be challenged (because "EVERY OPINION IS VALID") results in things that should not be a thing again.  Like Flat-Earthers.  

    The most effective thing to do, if a character was required to be killed at season 3, was kill Yang Xiao Long.

    Jaune would have still had a problem with Ozpin's actions, due to the unethical nature of them, and the fact that those actions were still taken, regardless of whether or not Pyrrha died.

    Beacon still fell, so the safety net of the school is gone, which has the cast out in the harsh world.  That happened regardless of Pyrrha's death.

    Team JNPR would have gone with Ruby to Haven anyway, as they are friendly enough to care about her well-being, and as such, would not have let her go alone.  In addition, the events that separate team RWBY have nothing to do with anything team JNPR was involved with  This would have happened regardless of Pyrrha's death.

    Yang's survival during the Invasion actually negates the cries of "anyone can die" that the fans and writers claim Pyrrha's death signified.

    And as I show here, Pyrrha was never an effective narrative catalyst for the eruption of the Silver Eyes.  And I know that someone's going to bring up the "trauma build-up" defense.  When you increase the payoff to include a hidden power erupting ("Traumatic Superpower Awakening", to use the handy TVTrope term), you MUST increase the build-up to maintain the balance between the build-up and the pay-off.  That means using a character that is VERY close to the character getting the power-up is a must, and that is true regardless of prior trauma.  In addition, you MUST either show this relationship developing on-screen (no cop-out of implying that it happened off-screen), or in the case of a chronologically pre-existing relationship, emphasize it heavily.  They did neither with Ruby to Pyrrha.