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Pyrrha Nikos general discussion

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  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757653 - 4 weeks ago

    In reply to Velrak

    I dont fully agree with ozpin as a murderer as it forgets a BIG thing.


    Salem will kill everyone. That is her goal to remake the world in her image. 

    So having people fight Salem in no way makes him a murderer because he isnt trying to kill them at all he is just trying to stop a world level threat that is Salem.

    Salem WILL kill everyone Ozpin is trying to stop it. Him doing that in no shape or form makes him a murderer.


    As for your point on Leonheart and Qrow that is actually the point he cant. People change with time as Leonhart was specifically said to be a strong warrior which is a far cry from how we saw him time and experience broke Leonheart.

    And as Ozpin flat out says Leonheart is not the first and the words Yang gave him are stuff he heard from leonheart as an example.

    So no he really cant trust completely because of the weight of all the things he has to juggle.


    Ozpin is not out of ideas he cant kill Salem so he is clearly working on the otherside of the equation bettering humans and Faunus so he can call back the gods who CAN kill Salem. We see this he pushes for equality in Human Faunus relations. 


    People are so focused on the idea that Ozpin did something wrong they forget a lot of the situation that heavily dictates his responses and behavior. Salem is an unkillable demi-goddess who has engines of Murder and destruction at her beck and call, which her goal is to become the new god of the world and remake it as she sees fit.

    He has magical artifacts to help him but they are a double edge sword as anyone can use them and they have a limit. Oh and if they are all gathered in one place end times get started.


    Ozpin is reacting and trying to predict and cut off Salem while working towards what is a thin and unlikely goal he was given by the god of light. That means he makes mistakes and big ones at that but its not him trying to hurt anyone actually the opposite.


    People need to stop trying to confront him and actually trying to understand him. Because that giant blow up from the girls? Its pretty clear that is what happens NORMALLY when he tries to tell people.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33757656 - 4 weeks ago

    In reply to Velrak

    In my view you are quite unfair to Ozpin.

    His fault is, that he has "My preciousssss mission". But he is only partly to blame. The mission was bestowed on him by a god, he followed it for hundreds (maybe even thousands) of years. And this impairs his reasoning. For those hundreds of years he has observed Salem doing damage, e.g. wiping out the hunter complement of Mistral for presumably dozens of times which may have set him on a destructive path.

    The wording of the question seems to be a result of this mindset

    "How can I destroy Salem".

    There are two logic holes in this question and no fictional oracle worth its salt will pass on the opportunity of using them.

    So he gets a "You can't".

    Although disappointing, this answer actually changes nothing except removing an improvement, because before he did not know how to destroy Salem either. He can just continue stalling her as best as he can. And that still is a mission worth fighting for.

    His mistake is not to call in outside advice/help because in this case he is too narrow minded.

    By the way just going ahead on inertia and rejecting help is similar to Pyrrha's approach.


    And he is justified withholding information. E.g. on the relic. Nora is immediately speculating what to ask the relic of knowledge potentially leading to wasting an extremely rare ressource. In this thread people are pressuring to use "creation" to revive Pyrrha, privileging her over Amber or Mistral's hunters because they know her better and she has a more beautiful model. From a world perspective which Ozpin has to take, this is not acceptable. Ruby actually does it. The twist is, that she is provoked to waste the question exactly by the inappropriate measures applied to protect the question from being wasted. Ozpin could have said, that there are two questions remaining, but that he is withholding access information in order to prevent temptation. If anyone forwards a good question he will forward it for the benefit of the mission.


    Pyrrha would not have gained relevant information for the Cinder fight, if she knew what Jinn told the team. It would still be important to prevent Salem from gaining ground and she was going to fight Cinder, not Salem.

    Cinder (half maiden) and two competent companions were driven off Amber by Qrow alone, presumably because exhaustion from the previous fight, but Cinder (full maiden) also came from a fight (with Ozpin) but she was alone this time and the place was extremely favourable for her semblance. You only need a finite amount of overoptimism to fill the gap.

    Ozpin did not kill/murder Pyrrha, he explicitly forbade her to fight. Which may have been a mistake, because combined they would have had a better chance too fight Cinder and they would still have had Jaune to call in reinforcements.


    By the way, not sharing information as the cause of catastrophy is not restricted to RWBY. The base of WH40K is the same. The emperor withholds information about the existence of the Chaos Gods leaving his "team" totally unprepared when they strike.

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33757685 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja

    I was pointing out how we didn't get to hear what Ozpin has to say about the approach he had after hearing Jinn's answer. As I said, it is almost certain he well understood that he won't be able to defeat her alone but with the help of others. But as we still haven't heard him confirm it, I was laying out this remaining option that he misinterpreted Jinn's answer: he would have understood no one could defeat her yet he continued to make people join him and fight against her (hence the "murderer" aspect).

    But again to be clear, I don't believe this was the case. I believe his motivation was to find how other people can help defeat her, that he does not think Salem can't be stopped, that he still has this motivation to find how but that currently, it hit a low point as he has run out of ideas ("I don't have one [a plan]"). Yes he has been working on the other side of the equation as you put it but now he doesn't know how to do it anymore. Nonetheless, I would say his motivation is quite clear. He just hasn't been given the chance to fully explain it to the others after Jinn's revelation.


    Now while I'm on the subject, I can't say the same about the cast (their motivations regarding Salem): tell me if I'm wrong but I have the impression that almost everyone currently thinks there is no way to stop Salem. Yang is the first one to say at the beginning of V6C4 in front of everyone that "Salem can't be killed", then Weiss in C5 with Ruby at the cave "If there is no way to kill Salem, then what is the point in all of this" then Yang and Weiss again as well as Oscar in C6... The Apathy is not the reason why they think so, Yang's comment in C4 prior to the Apathy proves it. They really believe there is no stopping Salem. After they escaped the Apathy, Weiss and Yang apologized for thinking giving up is the solution but that doesn't mean they changed their beliefs, only their approach: "we can't kill Salem okay but at least we will secure the relic in Atlas. That is how we can fight her best."

    Ruby is the only one to have proven to me that securing the relic is not just the best way to delay its capture by Salem but the best way to eventually defeat her.

    Despite everyone having the same goal of getting the RoK to Atlas, it seems to me that a major difference remains between what Ozpin and Ruby believe and what all the others believe (about the possibility of killing Salem). V7 needs to clear this up, why not with Ironwood joining the party. All the heroes characters need to be in agreement about their motivations because I don't think it is the case right now. And Ozpin needs to be at the core of this conversation of course.


    In reply to BakedBrain

    In reply to revanninja

    So. Withholding information, this is really the main theme. I understand why I would come across as unfair towards him but let me develop: first, I still feel bad for Ozpin. He was put in an almost impossible position by the God of Light and he was put there alone. The guy tried to deny the reality of his mission and tried to hide and forget but ultimately he fully committed himself to it which is very honorable and worth being praised. Nevertheless, when it comes to someone being in charge I personally think that mistakes are all the less allowed that the responsibility is important. With Ozpin, you have someone in charge of basically saving humanity. If I were someone from Remnant, I would thus expect almost no mistakes if not none from him. Again, still feel bad for the guy (I actually think the God of Light has been the one unfair to him) but I wouldn't get around my expectations towards Ozpin, they would be the highest. And lastly, Ozpin's mistakes are even less excusable as he can reincarnate ! No one more than him can learn from personal mistakes. After centuries of living and notably being betrayed, I would expect to find someone almost perfectly able to know which person to trust and at the very least someone able to detect if treason is near.

    The case Lionheart proves that Ozpin, despite being more cautious than ever, is still unable to surround himself with trusted people. And his comments ("You think Leo was the first" etc...) prove that he is aware of that hence why he is still keeping some crucial infos for him alone. Technically, this proves him right to do so but this does not change the fact that it remains unacceptable (to me). This is equivalent of saying Ozpin never fully trusted Qrow, Raven, Glynda, Ironwood etc... Qrow well understood it and rightfully punched him.

    Now that Jinn has spoken, it is impossible for Ozpin to keep playing it close to the chest. Not mentionning that Ironwood will certainly call him out for good once in Atlas, he expressed concerns about Ozpin keeping them in the dark already back in V2. Withholding information is no longer an option. "No more half truths and lies" has to be their motto now because the risk of treason is now way lower than the risk of discord within the heroes. By the way, I'm still waiting for Yang to inform everyone that Raven is the Spring maiden where she has been the one to promote "No more half truths and lies" twice.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757686 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to Velrak

    Ozpin is still a falliable human and just one man him making mistakes is understandable. You are honestly expecting way too much despite acknowledging the points that show ozpin has a LOT working against him.


    As we know ozpin isn't perfect and the other people of the world aren't perfect either so they compound.


    I will be honest your argument about ozpin really doesn't make any sense. We acknowledge oz has a raw deal he is in a super tough situation with people he can't trust completely and ozpin is still despite reincarnation a falliable human being. All the rebirths give is experience which said experience drives him not revealing all as oz himself says.


    You are holding him to a standard that goes against the message rwby is telling us about him that he is a man put into an incredible and unfair situation he is doing the best he can for even when it hurts him to do so.


    So I don't agree

    From my phone

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33757691 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to Velrak

    As leader Ozpin has to take responsibility for the results of his choices and actions regardless of difficulty level.

    You also have to take into account that you do not see how the alternatives would have played out.

    First he tried to maintain faction morale by not disclosing that the current objective is not victory over Salem but just stalling her, because he does not know how to defeat her. That is a gamble, Immediate and unavoidable damage to faction morale versus higher but uncertain and later damage to faction morale. This choice is acceptable and credible, because humans indeed prefer uncertain but higher damage to certain but lower damage.

    If he had forwarded the information and triggered another Raven/Lionheart incident in his faction right then, Salem might have already won ...

    Second he tried to protect the remaining two questions by pretending they were already spent. This choice, when busted caused the wasting of one of the two questions. What would have been your preferred course of action? The primary objective is to prevent other party members from wasting the questions. I would have preferred (with the benefit of hindsight) to forward the correct number of remaining questions but withhold the key, even admitting doing it. He has only to convince Oscar not to forward the key to the others in case Oscar gets the information (and hope that Oscar has no pressing questions of his own).

    Bad alternative run would be being honest tell all. Then Jaune cannot resist and asks "How can I revive Pyrrha?". Answer "You can't". Jaune adjusts the question. "How can Pyrrha be revived?". Answer: "She cannot be revived" ... because the baddies have captured her and at least her soul is alive anyway.

    Two questions wasted because of bad wording and wrong assumptions.

    And a possible twist, wasting questions is preferrable to saving them in case the baddies obtain the relic.

    Finally Ozpin's fundamental mistake is trying to run the show alone. But from the evidence it would be difficult for him to break out of this pattern. He was a "lone hero" (no party) in his first life and he got what seems like a personal mission from a God. If you study psychological models or just look at life experience. There are people who are more comfortable alone or in really small groups - like two.


    The trait "bust any spy at sight" will rarely be awarded to any character in fiction, because it would be a drama breaker. May be as a main arc and the spy then has to avoid contact at any cost.


    Yeah, Ozpin has to learn to share, one team member has to realize the flawed logic of Ozpin's question and then they would have to systematically go through their collective (mostly) Ozpin's knowledge to find a (the) way to get rid of Salem which seems to be making her see the "importance/meaning of life and death", the zealot approach of God of Light should not be repeated.


    Excuse me if I repeat myself. Ozpin's behaviour towards Pyrrha is totally acceptable for me.

    Preventing Salem from adding another half-maiden worth of power to her line-up is a worthy goal.

    Pyrrha is an excellent choice, the criteria being high ethical standards and fighting competence to make sure the powers are not lost or misused.

    Ozpin is not holding back on risks of the transfer process or consequences (there is someone out who will go to great lengths to bag the powers).

    That's fair and it is also a choice, sidelining Pyrrha would have been downright unfair.

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33757696 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to BakedBrain We have been given things that can lead to her being revived. So let's not be saying that she can't.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757697 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to NickPotterfi

    The point he is making and one I dont fully agree with is that Ozpin is trying to protect the questions from being used willy nilly and generally wasted.

    He is using Pyrrha as an example while ignoring that so far Jinn hasnt given simple answers to stuff. She answers generally as fully as she can so people understand the truth of the question.

    So if his example did happen Jaune asked how can I revive Pyrrha Jinn's answer would not be you cant it would be she doesnt need to be revived as Salem has revived her and SHOW him so he understands.


    Jinn has generally been shown to be helpful and free with giving her answers with the only example being Ozpin getting a simple answer. 

    And with that its very likely the answer You Can't is the 100% unvarnished truth.


    People are getting stuck on the You part and seeing that as some hook when in reality the you is like saying you cant survive in space. It doesnt indicate a single person and is instead a general you.


    So chances are good from all the examples of Jinn we have seen she wouldnt give waste answers and instead would answer as fully and completely as she can unless the simple IS the full and complete answer.


    So Nick dont get stuck on Baked using an example especially since he isnt actually saying she cant be revived at all if you actually read what he says.

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33757699 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja So wait. Who is Jinn again? All of these different characters can make things confusing for me sometimes.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757700 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to NickPotterfi

    Jinn is the spirit tied to the Relic of Wisdom

    maxresdefault.jpg

    She can answer 3 questions every 100 years.

    She cant tell you the future but anything Past or Present she can answer.


    She also seems to make it a point that you understand the answers fully and not just get an answer and not understand it.

  • acw28

    acw28

    #33757708 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's still one question left, yes? Just think how that could divide the group.


    Everyone is in Atlas and Ruby is able to talk to Dr. Polendina, learning there might be a way to revive Penny (as in the one Ruby and co. knew, not just another copy), but he just doesn't have the complete answer. Meanwhile Jaune has an encounter with Cinder (who doesn't take him seriously because she's too focused on revenge against Ruby) and hints that there may be a way to bring Pyrrha back.


    The argument and split stems from one question, which friend deserves to be brought back more?

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33757709 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja Okay. There is just so many characters that it just makes it hard to keep up sometimes.

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33757710 - 3 weeks ago

    Jianju asked me a question. And I Thought I'd find the answer for her. Her question was

    "quick question, do you know how many seasons of RWBY they are saying they'll make? Because if there are many, it could mean Pyrrha will come back and be in a lot of episodes still." That's what she asked me. And I'm kinda with her on the "lot of episodes with her in it" part. And I am hoping they are aiming for her return.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757712 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to acw28

    Yes currently there is only one and Jinn will only allow herself to be used when they have a question. That part in the end of 6 was a one time deal due to it being clever.


    Hmm I have to point out Penny is a nice character but emotional weight Pyrrha outweighs them all.

    JNPR it was her team.

    RWBY outside of Ruby none of the girls really interacted with her. While they did with Pyrrha.

    Ozpin would be against it I think unless there is a reason or he feels guilty about it both are possible.

    Qrow I think would be uncertain due to his anger with Ozpin and depression

    Maria would be eh either way I think.


    So just from a story weight alone Pyrrha has Penny beat in SPADES. That said there might be an issue with the Dr who was clearly upset over Penny's lost and HIM demanding the answer which makes more sense as it could also involve Atlas.

    In reply to NickPotterfi

    No one knows the exact answer and I think RT isnt sure themselves but roughly 12 has been banded about.

    So take that with a grain of Salt.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33757715 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to NickPotterfi

    One starting episode + 2 for each academy, then an unknown number for conclusion. At least 10, maybe some more.

    In reply to acw28

    Taking into account that God of Light was opposed to revival in general, what would you assume he would think about hawking dead people's eligibility for limited revival slots against each other? Or even quarreling and fighting about this subject.

    This should rather yield a fresh round of curses than even one person getting revived. You should abstain from prioritizing people's lives against each other outside of emergencies and even then personal priorities of the people having access to the required ressources should not be relevant.

    In reply to revanninja

    I have to dissent.

    I intentionally mimicked the structure of Ozpin's question (How can I destroy Salem?). So it is to be expected, that the answer would follow the structure too. I would expect Jaune to get the same amount of related information as Ozpin.

    This would be the first fictional oracle rectifying holes in questions a la "May I help you rephrase the question so that you get the information you need - for naught, of course".

    If you just think a little, you might get to the real reasons why Jinn provided a multimedia-super-immersive-show for Ruby. First reason: it was an open question ...


    Assuming that a question forwarded in context of a distinct person "I" is answered with a universal "you" is a bit stretchy, even if it was not an oracle answering.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757718 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    You can dissent all you want but its wrong.

    You mimiced Ozpin's question but did not mimic Jinn's Behavior. Ruby also gives a short question that could easily be answered simply she did not answer it simply.

    We see several times with Jinn she tries to Help. We see this with Ruby when she asks her question she made it a point they understood everything and not just bare information she does it again with the finale allowing Ruby to bend the rules to get her time stopping ability because she finds it clever. Jinn is generally helpful.

    So no the answer is not expected it would follow the same structure in fact it goes against the POINT of Jinn the relic of Knowledge to behave in that way. She is helpful and to suddenly give short answers? Either the answers are the 100% truth no ands ifs or buts or there is something wrong. She wouldnt drag out Jaune's question like you think.

    No its actually not the first oracle to do that MANY oracles in fact help answer the thing is what are the Rules involved and if the oracle likes the person or not is usally what controls that.

    You need to read more if you think this is the first time an Oracle has been helpful instead of being obtuse and no that isnt an insult but its actually fairly common for Oracles to try to help.

    I thought more then a little do not do that Baked its not okay to try to sneak that in. And yes it was an open ended question so is how do I destroy Salem because its asking for the knowledge.


    As for answering a distinct I with a Universal if the answer IS universal no its not sketchy at all. As I exampled someone asking how do I breathe in space the answer is you cant and its asked as a distinct person but answered with a universal You because its true universally you cant breathe in space you can only shield yourself in a self containted atmosphere to protect yourself from space.


    Again you can dissent but you are wrong. 


    As for the god of Light he isnt against Revival he says there are rules he and the god of Darkness agreed to. Because the god of Darkness had no issues with it. Its pretty clear the issue with revival is because the god of light and Darkness are trying to be bound by rules and laws which they clearly havent explained to Humans.

    Also I dont think the god of Light is going to blame the Humans who dont know he exists and while he is gone from the planet.

    Keep in mind till they are called back they have washed their hands of the situation.

    So its more then a little Hypocritical to do that. 

  • user-572df514355fe

    user-572df514355fe

    #33757725 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja Since when have god's never been depicted as hypocrite's? Despite all they're power and "divinity" they are just as flawed as their creations.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757726 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to user-572df514355fe

    Depends on the god religion and so forth actually.

    It so heavily depends on WHICH set of Gods Religion and so forth. 

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33757728 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja

    As far as I remember, we were shown Jinn answering questions twice in the show. We got both an elaborate multimedia blabb and a short sentence. So it is not possible to deduct a pattern. There is simply not enough material for a valid statistical analysis. In principle you can interprete as you please.

    But if you try to project at all, you should stay in the category. This is the reason why I assume that you would just bounce off if you asked how to do something impossible. And when you asked what a schemer was hiding you would get lots of stuff.


    By the way, in our world it is possible to breathe in space, you just need the right equipment. An if you asked "How to" a constructive oracle would forward blueprints.

    There are also languages around in which personal pronouns are distinct and in these languages you would see, that your assumption is not correct. "Kann ich im Weltraum atmen ?" - "Ja, Du kannst im Weltraum atmen, wenn Du einen Raumanzug hast." (German example) Why should you change your conversational partner's question? An universal "you" would also be false, there are at least two known characters who can destroy Salem.


    I am missing examples for super-cooperative oracles. I would assume that Jinn is not intentionally hiding and/or blurring anything and always telling the truth. But she is divining the intention of the questioner and optimizing the answer to fullfill his needs.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757729 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    No there is a pattern we are shown 2 questions but we get a LOT of her personality from it. We see her allowing Ruby to use her for example to take a breather and gather herself. Which is a third example. Even her interaction with Ozpin is Hello old man with clear teasing and fondness in it.

    There is a pattern you are just ignoring it.

    Jinn in all her interactions seems to be generally helpful and upfront.


    Also she is a tool DESIGNED to help her user. She is literally a search engine designed to give perfect answers. So her helping people understand why she cant answer a question makes sense.


    The only one projecting is you baked and it shows I suggest you stop that. You ASSUME and that is the issue especially when it shows that Jinn is generally helpful. 


    No you cant breathe in space actually. You can SHIELD yourself from space but space will kill you if you try to breathe in it. That is a scientific fact Baked. It has no pressure which will boil our lungs as the fluid in them try to equalize the pressure. There is no O2 the temps can also be from freezing cold to boiling hot depending on location all of which do not conduct well to breathing in space.

    AKA you cant breath in space without wearing a Space suit which is a shield from the issues of space and containing a breathable atmo.


    You are adding languages that are not being spoken we are speaking in English which DOES in fact have the ability to change from a personal to an indistinct Italian can do that Loro for example is They them but also PLURAL they them as an example. Any language has their own rules just because German doesnt have it doesnt mean anything Baked.

    Its also WRITTEN in english Baked RT is native english speakers and that does 100% matter in how info is presented and given.

    Again you are moving the goal posts and its super obvious.

    You need to move it out of its HOME language to even get a point and its one that doesnt even work like you think it does.

    And no the gods may not be able to destroy her. Its actually a common thing in myths where someone sets a rule and then it turns around and bites them. So the gods may have made her unable to be killed by them and only the planet stopping will kill her. Because curses often do work that way its actually common practice same with helpful oracles.


    Yes she is and that is my POINT Baked. So she wont just go you cant revive Pyrrha if Pyrrha is already revived or anything like that. And so she would say you cant because Pyrrha is not dead or something along those lines.

    She would make sure the answer is not No unless there is nothing else to it then that.


    You are also forgetting one of her rules she cant see the future. So if its not possible as it currently stands even if later something is figured out she can say you cant and be 100% true. 

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33757730 - 3 weeks ago

    Something annoying to stir the pot and get us closer to 1600 for kicks:


    Pyrrha's death has been poorly handled in the sense that the writing seems to imply that they're trying to spin her death and belief in 'destiny' as a "good thing", when it was the core reason for her downfall and the tragedy that befell Volume 3. 


    You can't just portray something as a tragic character flaw in one Volume and then adopt some revisionist baloney in later volumes to make it a rallying cry for JNR.


    When Pyrrha died, it was a tragic event that warned our heroes from letting their demons rule their lives. An innocent student risking her life without even knowing the truth behind Salem - letting her personal beliefs + weakenesses ruin her relationships and ultimately her life. Pyrrha was a tragic martyr whose death was unnecessary in pretty much every way save Ruby activating her silver eyes.


    Now her "attempt" is a source of comfort for JNR? For all of the talk of RWBY 'breaking the cycle' and 'new solutions', apparently there was nothing profound to learn from Pyrrha's death. Most of the hostility towards Ozpin resulted from Jinn's history.

  • user-572df514355fe

    user-572df514355fe

    #33757738 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to mach56gs  unamused Tell me about it, that pisses me off more then anything just thinking about it.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757739 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    They arent trying to portray her death as a good thing nor her belief in destiny or anything like that.

    Instead they are trying to portray people coming to terms with it.


    For example her mother sister whoever RHW is clearly takes comfort from the fact Pyrrha clearly had friends who cared about her a LOT.

    While jaune comes to terms that even though he HATES what happened Pyrrha remained true to herself and her beliefs.


    Its not them showing it as a rallying cry or something JNPR takes comfort from but rather the complex question when a soldier dies in battle fighting for what they believed in even as what they fought and believed is what killed them.


    So they arent trying to show it as a good thing just rather people coming to terms with the whole thing.

  • Ace-of-Rogues

    Ace-of-Rogues FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Main Weapon: Rapier Wit

    #33757740 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    A death can be tragic and noble at the same time. Without getting too detailed to prevent spoilers, consider how Endgame resolved the conflict with Thanos. That was absolutely tragic, but touching and noble at the same time. Or perhaps Church's last words on Chorus are a better analogy: "The hero never gets to see [the] ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice made a difference. They'll never know if in the end the day was saved. In the end they just have to have faith. Ain't that a bitch?". Sometimes the outcome is less important than the act


    There come times when there's a fight that has to be fought, even if you can't be sure you'll win. Maybe you need to buy time for others to escape. Maybe it's your last stand, with no other options left. Or maybe you just need to take a stand and say "I am not afraid of you. I will fight you, I might be killed by you, but I will not run from you". Pyrrha was a warrior and a protector, and for all that she was just a student it was clear she'd already dedicated herself to being a Huntress. She didn't survive standing and fighting, but I don't believe she could have lived with turning and running.


    Pyrrha's downfall had little to do with her personally, she was simply a convenient target for Cinder and Salem, an icon for them to cast down. What happened in Volume 3 happened because Salem feels her grief is so all-important that she would rather inflict it on all the world rather than let go of it, perhaps because she fears that without it she will have nothing, be nothing. In a way I suspect Salem wants to prove that everyone is like her, that when you take away what they value most they'll become dark and self-serving. Looking at what transpired in V3 in that light, I feel Pyrrha's actions served to refute Salem. Pyrrha lost her image, her destiny, her chance at greatness and after losing all of that still she acted for others, fighting to stem the tide of darkness. I begin to wonder, did she truly fall, or did she rise?


    Okay, that got a lot longer and deeper than I planned, and it's getting late so I better stop here otherwise I'll still be writing when the sun comes up. Hope this provides some food for thought.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33757741 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja

    I use assume and such here and there to indicate that interpreting fiction is no exact science. I am not one of the authors, so I do not know anything, I can only guess. And a guess always has a high chance of being faulty.


    That said, let's dive into this sentence again. There is no way to determine if "You can't" is singular or plural (general). You (general) have to bring context into your interpretation, So the preceding question shifts the balance towards singular. If the person in question is known for generalizing that produces a shift to plural. The author's are the only ones who can solve this. I brought in other languages because in those you would know from the sentence alone, because second person singular and second person plural are not the same.


    Pressing that Jinn is helpful but then excluding providing information about equipment is not consistent in my eye. Carried over to the revival, this would mean that you get a "No you can't" on "Can I revive Pyrrha" although with a relic you could, just as you can breath in space if you use a spacesuit (given that spacesuits are already invented). That would be a rather lawerly oracle.


    There is a difference between being able to do something and actually doing it or not. Dark at least is not that observient to rules.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33757742 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    The question here is the content of "her destiny". Wa it "Always attack evil at sight"? And what did the writers wanted to show originally and did they change their mind afterwards.

    Was it

    * "just" a dramatic effect (fridge stuffing for the party and audience)

    * first of many (heralding the coming of a high threat environment) - this one can be excluded after a run of three casualty-free seasons

    * part of something bigger (yet hidden faction, glimpse of a nefarious operation to be revealed later)

    The third option is the most interesting, after the second one became stale.