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Pyrrha Nikos general discussion

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  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33757743 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    Pyrrha's downfall had little to do with her personally, she was simply a convenient target for Cinder and Salem, an icon for them to cast down.

    I do not believe that Pyrrha was targeted by Cinder or even less Salem. Cinder's target was the tower, not Pyrrha. Would have been quite complicated to coordinate the attack with Pyrrha's movements to provoke her into attacking.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757744 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    Your point on languages is false and we both know it.

    You know why? Because we know the terms of her curse. That right there literally shoots your argument in the foot.

    God of Darkness: You cannot die. You cannot be with your beloved.

    Both Gods: So long as this world turns, you shall walk its face.

    Salem stares back at them in disbelief.

    God of Light: You must learn the importance of life and death. Only then may you rest.

    Vol 6 The Lost Fable


    The terms of the curse which we learn before we get told you cant show us the truth because its context that word you have issue with that makes it clear its plural that no one can kill her. Context is what shifts the word from singular to plural.

    So you bringing in other languages is a false and goal moving point.


    Its not Consistent to YOU  but we have already established you have a loose understanding of oracles and context and is also ignoring the context you provided. If Pyrrha was already revived then the answer would explain WHY she cant. With Breathing in space again a space suit you do not breathe in space you are using a movable atmosphere in space aka you are not breathing in space. Again scientific fact. And since they dont have space ability currently the reason WHY I picked it as its a fact Dust stops working once you move away from the planet they dont have space suits. That was me already baking in the point of Jinn cant answer future stuff.

    In remnant they dont have space travel at all so Jinn would answer you cant and be truthful.


    No Dark does care about the rules he just lets his ego get in the way with things. That was the whole point of why Salem pretended to come to him first so she can stroke his ego and why he was willing to fight his brother he had someone coming to HIM for help and worship and suddenly his brother is no? Yeah that is why he was pissed until Light revealed she came to HIM first and then Dark turned.

    God of Light: I am abiding by the rules we agreed upon!

    God of Darkness: Rules that I now see are ever in your favor. And yet the day a mortal comes to pray at my feet before your own, so do you arrive to lay your judgment upon me!

    The God of Darkness transforms into a nightmarish, dragon-like form that snarls at the God of Light. The Grimm proceed forward and attempt to attack him, but a bright light emanates from him, destroying all the Grimm in the area. He transforms into a bright, beautiful oriental-looking dragon.

    God of Light: I know we have our differences, but I have not come here with the aim to control you. The same, however, cannot said for her. This woman came to you only after I denied her pleas – pleas that would have disrupted the balance that you and I created. Together.

    The younger brother ponders this revelation.

    God of Darkness: Then it seems I owe you an apology. Allow me to correct my mistake.

    Vol 6 The Lost Fable

    That was the reason why.


  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33757745 - 3 weeks ago

    To the responses:


    There are many noble and tragic deaths, but in the presentation of Volume 3, Pyrrha's death was a tragic one. She was a noble character, but her death was explicitly tragic - so any comparison to a scene where a hero sacrifices themselves (Titanic, Gravity, etc..) doesn't match correctly. Pyrrha did not trade her life for some victory, she had no idea about Ruby - neither did anyone else at the time, not even the audience, so I'm not counting the Silver Eyes baloney.


    Pyrrha in Volume 3 was utter grief porn - the writers put her through every nightmare that she hoped to avoid: wounding her relationship with Jaune, making her an accessory to a villainous plot, making her kill someone, dangling her life goal in front of her before ripping it away... all with her being completely robbed of any free will or hope to stop this downward spiral. The only choice that was truly hers was to ignore Ozpin's warning and confront Cinder herself - and I think that after all of the events of V3, Pyrrha was in no state to make that choice, and more importantly: shouldn't have had to make that choice in the first place.


    After all of the warnings of not being 'weapons pointed at the enemy', Pyrrha amounted to exactly that, and promptly died. This revisionism, trying to cover up the tragedy with some noble purpose stinks. Pyrrha was not a martyr whose example should be followed - her death was a tragedy that ought to be prevented.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757746 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    And they arent trying to present her as a martyr which is something I think you are missing.

    All they are trying to do is make sense of it which is a real life thing Mach. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757747 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    Are you ignoring that Cinder set up the matches and was having Emerald mess with Pyrrha's head? And they knew both Pyrrha's semblance and how she uses it plus Penny's secret as a robot?

    Because Cinder 100% targeted Pyrrha that is a fact.

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33757748 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja

    I am fine with trying to find understanding/closure over a tragedy.


    But my point is that the conclusion that was reached was incredibly sub-par in relation to the rest of the show. While many characters have taken tragedies and have used them to better themselves and improve their lives moving forward, JNR went for something that I think is thematically inconsistent by 'settling for less'. 


    This is obviously biased in my mind as well: the more JNR find closure over Pyrrha's death, the less likely that it will be addressed in the future - the less likely for Pyrrha to return. I do think I have to be honest about some of my intentions here  stuck_out_tongue

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33757749 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to mach56gs I really don't want to believe that it's unlikely.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757750 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    That wasnt what they are doing at all. I think you are reading something into it that they arent meaning.


    Also something to keep in mind a good revival they DO need to have some form of closure which I have even talked about. It helps sell the emotional impact if you separate it from then and now.

    A good example of this is from legend of Dragoon. Lavitz is killed pretty early but he established himself as a kind good and noble knight. His King inherits his Dragon soul and fills his place and they talk about it and even express their regret over Lavitz death.


    Then comes much later and we go to the land of the dead where there is Lavitz now under the control of a demon and being forced to fight them. During it Lavitz does fight for control. When all is said and done they get to say their farewell properly and lavitz uses his powers to open the way.

    He cant be revived as that power isnt presented in Legend of Dragoon but the whole thing is emotionally well done and handled for the scene.


    So for them to do any kind of revival shennigans at all they need to actually have SOME closure. It helps sell it a LOT.

  • Ace-of-Rogues

    Ace-of-Rogues FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Main Weapon: Rapier Wit

    #33757751 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    Pyrrha wasn't a weapon, for one simple reason: she chose to fight. As Locus was fond of ranting about, weapons don't get to choose who they're pointed at; Pyrrha did choose. No one told her to go up that tower, she decided to do that on her own. That's what defines us in the end, our choices. We can't control what happens around us, happens to us, but we can control how we react to it. In spite of everything that happened to her, Pyrrha still chose to put others first, still chose to fight, to make a difference. And she did. Not intentionally, not deliberately, but still her actions changed the outcome of Salem's attack on Beacon. 


    I agree her death wasn't one of those big moments where the hero throws their life away for the sake of another, knowing that someone else will carry on the battle or that their sacrifice will bring an end to the conflict. Instead, by her actions, Pyrrha looked Cinder and Salem in the eyes and said "You will not break me, you will not change me." All their efforts to drive people apart, all their machinations to sow distrust and fear, and still they couldn't keep the one person who should have been more devastated and broken than anyone else that day from choosing to put others first, to remain selfless and courageous in the face of overwhelming darkness. 


    What happened to Pyrrha was tragic. The choices she made in the face of that tragedy were noble.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33757752 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja

    In reply to BakedBrain
    God of Light: You must learn the importance of life and death. Only then may you rest.

    "Destroy" is the real important part of the question where Ozpin missed the mark. Although it is obvious that this question is all important and you told us, that she is on a friendly basis with Ozpin, she forwarded no hint about the fundamental flaw in his question, she did not elaborate in any way. Ozpin is now directionless, has no plan and dragged down his team.

    Draw your conclusions on this, I draw mine.


    And I still do not know how you come to the conclusion that it is plural with such certainty.


    Please do not employ fake and poisoned consensus, using we. We do not know that my point about languages is false, because I do not and that is enough to kill the we. Same applies to your assumption of my loose understanding of oracles.

    I am still waiting for examples of supercooperative oracles by the way, which were "established" to be numerous by a certain someone.


    Small correction from me on your sentence:

    No Dark does care about the rules he just lets his ego get in the way with things them.


    With a space suit you are in the suit in space and you can breathe, again wrap that up as you please.


    We seem to have reached a point of lawyering again and I am not sure if those points will be raised in sufficient decidedness in the show so I cannot even forward a decent challenge. What a pity.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757754 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    No that is what you ASSUME he missed the mark. And the reason why she didnt tell him is because he already KNEW.

    Yes he knew the answer.

    You clearly forgot about that 

    Jinn: As Salem and Ozma recounted the events which had brought them back together, each withheld parts of their story. Salem, fearing Ozma would reject her, blamed the end of the world on the gods. Ozma, still unsure of where the truth lay, kept his task and the Relics a secret. Though time passed and all seemed well, Ozma's conversation with the God of Light still lingered in his mind. He had found happiness, but humanity seemed more divided than ever before.

    Vol 6 The lost fable.

    The part Salem kept back was how the world ended but NOT her curse. Ozpin knew the answer so that is why Jinn didnt give him hints because he knew the answer he just didnt want to face it.

    Context its a thing.


    Because of Context it makes it SUPER clear. 


    I dont employ fake and posioned anything. Dont accuse me of stuff that is not true a repeating pattern with you like when you tried to say I act like I cant be wrong despite me LITERALLY saying I could a page back.

    Your arugment on Languages is wrong due to the simple fact the writers wrote it in english are native speakers and wrote it for a english audience. By shifting it into another language even arguing for other languages removes it from its actual context and tries to shift it.

    And just because YOU dont see it as that doesnt actually mean anything. Just because you do not understand doesnt make the statement untrue it just means you in particular do not agree with the common understanding which is what We actually IS.

    You LITERALLY said you are not experienced with Oracles as you were unaware that helpful Oracles are common. That isnt an assumption that is you saying that and showing it time and time again.

    I didnt realize you were waiting on that since you know there is a whole tv tropes on the subject.

    Every hear of Cassandra truth? Cassandra was an oracle who was cursed by Apollo to tell the truth but not be believed because she wouldnt sleep with him.

    Xenoblade has Shulk who can see the future generally only a few seconds ahead and give him heads up to save people and things.

    We have also Thundercats which the Sword of Omens would show future events.

    Like there is a LOT out there that you even asking this is showing just how loose of understanding of Oracles you have.

    There is a LOT the issue is usually the helpful oracles are under limits for Jinn its the 3 questions and it having to be related to the question. For Lion-o he gets those visions but often lacks context so its hard to figure out. For Shulk he sees it perfectly but only has a few seconds to react.


    No it is things not them. Please dont correct you are TERRIBLE at it. I said things because its not just Rules it applies to its also his behavior and other things. Like how he killed the entire human race because a few of them attacked him with the gift he gave them. That isnt a rule as far as we know but it is his ego getting in the way of things.

    So no your correction is wrong and dont do that again please and thnak you.


    Nope sorry but you are wrong basic facts I am sorry you dont understand that Breathing in space is not the same as being in a space suit but you are doing Distinction with out a difference even though that difference is 100% there.


    No we reached the point where you clearly are trying to goal post as your argument crumples due to basic facts and understandings literally shooting your "challenges" in the foot.


    By the by your challenges are not even worthy of the name they have never been decent because most of the time they are built on fabrications or just misunderstanding on your part.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33757758 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja

    No, I do not see it that way.

    Cinder "targeted" a combination that would allow for an instakill in the 1 vs 1 fights, because the safety threshold of aura has to be overwhelmed. You cannot do that with anyone else shown in the lineup.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33757760 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Sorry I cannot follow you any more, or did you just tell me that Oscar forwarded a question already knowing the answer and Jinn evaded her "usual" elaboration to go easy on him?

    Whatever ... 

    Now that you are in CAPITAL bold and italics mode I will spare other readers further rounds.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757763 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    There is no mode its called basics of typing and considering you keep trying to slip in insults you should have spared everyone awhile ago. 

    Using Italics Bold and Capital are all normal writings for example from the transcripts they used a Bold we in writing that is when you read it you are suppose to understand someone is stressing it heavily. Same goes for Capital. When used together its suppose to highly underline what is being said.

    So for example WE WERE SUPPOSE TO BE GODS! All this gives meaning to how its suppose to sound. It gives the volume how its being said and the emotion being expressed in it without being a clunky "we were suppose to be gods!" He said with passion in his voice. They both underscore the meaning but the other gave it far more meaning and flavor then you realize or acknowledge.

    I am sorry you never understood that.


    You cant follow because you dont understand.

    Because Oscar? You mean Ozpin? A completely DIFFERENT character? 

    And Ozpin asked because he didnt know if there was another way which Jinn bluntly told him no there isnt.

    See how that works?

    He knows what Salem told him but he doesnt know if that is it or if something was left out and Jinn confirmed to him no nothing was left out he cant destroy Salem he knows the terms of the curse and there is nothing anyone can do about it only Salem learning the importance of life or the world stops turning which kills everyone are the answers.

    He was hoping Jinn had an answer he didnt know about.

    Its a lot like asking a question you already know the answer to because you need to know even though you figured it out.


    As for your question on anyone else in the lineup. Yes you can. Sun is in the Lineup an openly Faunus student. Have Penny an Atlas "student" who is also a war machine kill him and you can spark a re-opening of a race war between atlas and Faunus kind you know the ones they basically treat like second class at best?

    Just because you dont see other ways doesnt mean there arent other ways.

    And Penny 100% can overwhelm the safety measure which by the by isnt a real thing as made super obvious by Pyrrha all it takes is an attack that goes beyond the threshold and you have it.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33757794 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Believe me, I knew that writing in capitals is emphasizing.

    Read this ...

    I only wonder a little bit, what adding bold and italics is meant to be then.


    Penny kills Sun scenario may have political advantages but it also has technical difficulties. Sun has no special weaknesses against Penny's attacks while Penny is especially susceptible both to magnetic force and EMP. Also Pyrrha's special attack goes under Aura is mostly invisible to the target and can be used almost instantaneously. Penny's superbeam has to be build up (special formation of swords), so you have a chance to defend and I surmise it does not go past aura. So basically Emerald would have to present an alternative battlefield for a much longer time.


    I asked specifically about oracles which expand the questions forwarded to them to the benefit of the person asking.

    Cassandra is super-useless.

    The other seem to be rather clairvoyants than oracles.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757799 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    Except I am not using all Caps only CERTAIN words so I am not shouting. Its used to emphasize certain words and make them stand especially since many forums have control issues that make it difficult to use especially when one is on a phone which I often post from my phone so I cant easily use Bold or Italics and thus I use caps. One forum I wrote on for a while you had a drop down list to make words have Bold or Italics. And I have already explained it gives deeper meaning to words. So no clearly you dont know what writing in capitals emphasizes considering you have always acted like its some kind of issue treating it like its a problem showing your complete lack and understanding of its use.

    You have always acted like its some kind of threshold that I am daring to cross despite no one else really having a problem with it and understanding what I am doing beyond those who cant defeat my arguments suddenly attacking it or how I write. Geee why would I not put any stock when people do that in a repeating pattern?


    It doesnt have any tech issues actually.

    Sun does have a weakness we saw in vol 5 he over uses his semblance it burns out his aura. So make him think he needs to do what he did with Ilia and suiddenly he has no aura and boom an attack cuts him in 2.

    So emerald would literally have to do nothing more then what she did to Pyrrha aka show overwhelming numbers.


    You didnt actually and if you thought you did it was worded so terribly it didnt come across.

    Cassandra is not useless because the whole point of that is actually accurate visions that no one listens to. Cassandra types are trying to be helpful.

    Oracles are clairvoyant...so WHAT? Seriously Clairvoyance is the ability to see the future.


    Clairvoyant

    having or exhibiting an ability to perceive events in the future or beyond normal sensory contact.

    The difference is only in if the gods are involved or not since Oracles are often connected to the gods but that isnt always 100% the case. And in the case of Shulk he is connected to the gods....hoo booy howdy is he connected to the gods I wont say more due to spoilers since that is a MASSIVE twist for like 2 separate games but Shulk truly does count as an oracle.


    At this point I suggest we stop as its just circling around and around with no end.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33757809 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Using clones in a one on one would be an incredible dumb move from Sun. You forgot the main disadvantage. He has to remain stationary while running clones and control them, so he does not even have an advantage fighting with them.

    But OK, Penny could then laserbeam him for good, but Emerald would have to be really creative to set up a situation where using clones makes any sense, if you consider ending up Aura-dry and the clones not being able to do much damage.

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33757811 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues


    As noble as Pyrrha was, she really didn't have much of a choice. After all of the trauma she had gone through in Volume 3, she was in no state to make such a decision, especially one with such an obvious outcome. We can agree to disagree on that - but just because you can choose, doesn't mean you have to make such choices.


    As much as the writers tried to spin it to us as an inspirational moment in Volume 6, it's not an easy sell. Pyrrha did look into the eyes of Cinder without fear, but her ignorance diminishes the significance. As much as people can try to honor her bravery, Salem can mock it as just another pawn blindly following what it believes is just. And in the context of the story, Salem's not wrong. 


    Saying "Pyrrha tried and that's good" is like giving bandaids to a cancer patient - it's a nice emotional reinforcement, but does nothing to give JNR an edge in the fights to come. It gives them no reason to overcome Salem's ideology  - it just paves the path to be exactly like Pyrrha - which I thought the show was trying to present to us as a fate we should avoid, not embrace.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757810 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    Not really he did it on a moving car after all so not as dumb as you think.

    Lets see he did it on a car that was moving did it on a boat while over the ocean and he also did it on a rooftop moving fight so no I didnt forget I just recall all his fights were he did it anyway and it worked.

    Canon fights trump that issue.

    V2_04_00056.png
    V4_03_00045.pngV5_blake_short_00021.pngV5_blake_short_00023.png

    The clones can do damage I am not sure where you get the idea they cant as again canon fights show him doing it. They clearly have weight and impact if they didnt burying Ilia under a pile of them wouldnt make any sense.

    He can also move once they are summoned he only needs to stay still while they are being summoned.


    And if he thought there was a large attack coming just like Pyrrha did who then unleashed a massive magnetic wave? He would probably respond the same way.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757813 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    Again I think you are MASSIVELY misunderstanding what is being shown and said.

    Because its clear they arent trying to show it as inspirational at all.

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33757814 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja


    I think that's exactly what they did in Volume 6 with the episode on Pyrrha's statue. I'm not saying the ship is sailed and nothing can be done about it, but the current impression to me is what I have said. You can feel free to disagree and see things differently, but that's how I see it: Bad closure.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757815 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    I disagree and I think if you told that to CRWBY they would disagree with you.

    Because its super clear while it is closure its not suppose to be inspirational to JNPR or RWBY.

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33757817 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to revanninja


    Of course CRWBY would disagree with this criticism - I'm calling into question one of the main story beats of Volume 6. They also have much more understanding of the plot overall, so I'm already at a disadvantage.


    It is most certainly supposed to be inspirational to JNR, the crew said that the statue scene was supposed to give JNR (Jaune specifically) the resolve to keep going forward - that constitutes inspiration for me.


    It can easily change with how JNR is treated in future Volumes, but Volume 6 does not give me a much reason to be super confident.

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33757820 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    In reply to revanninja

    I personally felt that the Pyrrha's statue scene helped team JNR (especially Jaune) to both end their grief as well as moving forward (honoring her by fighting like she did). Pyrrha being an inspiration for them was definitely there for me, I'm now just curious to see how much team JNR will indeed stay true to their words in coming fights.

    But that does not mean Pyrrha couldn't come back later. I agree with what revan said earlier, it could even improve the impact of her return (on the audience and even team JNR).

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33757823 - 3 weeks ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    It's really not if you noticed they don't treat it that way at all.

    The person who gave him that resolve wasn't the statue it was RHW.

    From my phone