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Pyrrha Nikos general discussion

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  • acw28

    acw28

    #33758345 - 2 months ago

    In reply to JROY

    I don't think it was ever in doubt that she died, save for a few teleportation theories, I think the main point of contention is if she'll eventually be revived or if her story is completely over and no longer relevant to the overall plot of the series.

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33758346 - 2 months ago

    In reply to acw28

    I doubt they would do make her no longer relevant. Seeing as how many people would be upset if they do.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758349 - 2 months ago

    In reply to acw28

    The issue with that is Ruby flat out says Qrow trained her. So it makes perfect sense they would use like weapons. It would be FAR stranger to not use like weapons in that situation. 

    Jaune never said he learned anything from his ancestors he just said they were heroes.


    Honestly the whole argument on the weapons is clearly reaching as all those examples are also filled in by who taught them.

    Tai is heavily hinted to have trained Yang.

    Winter DID train weiss though how much we dont know only she did train her and some what often based on their interactions and we know Weiss looks up to Winter a LOT.


    The other issue is Ruby and Qrow ARE related Yang is Qrow's blood niece without question. Yang is Ruby's half sister thus Ruby and Qrow are related in that weird sort of way through people without sharing blood and its very clear Qrow considers the girls true family based on their interactions.


    Thus them sharing Weapon styles is covered without them being Father and Daughter.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33758350 - 2 months ago

    In reply to JROY

    In reply to acw28

    I would like to illustrate my opinion about lying about reveals with examples.

    If Pyrrha was indeed dead dead, then there would be no plot for her in the show and there would be no need to protect a reveal. The authors could tell the truth without spoiling.

    On the other hand the false maiden. They laid out clues that Vernal was not the maiden. If a person noticed the clues and pinned the authors at a panel, presenting the evidence and concluded Raven was the maiden, flat óut lying and saying that Vernal is the maiden would ruin the story and after the reveal the author's would get the shitstorm they deserve and they would loose viewers.

    Either you have some lawerly distraction ready which is technically true (Delphy oracle style) or you move on to the next question preferrably because you never answer questions about upcoming events. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758351 - 2 months ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    No actually they wouldnt.

    Most people would understand and here is something you are missing by a wide world spanning gulf. Miles and Kerry and all the VAs have flat out said in panels over and over again they do not want spoilers.

    They want us the watchers to experience the show as they show us not tell us.


    And most people would and do understand that. They wouldnt lose viewers nor would there be a "real shitstorm" there would be a fake one like what RWDE often tries to push up but no there wouldnt be anything of it.

    Because people DO understand the need to keep a secret and the spice it gives stories.


    And they HAVE lied to us already by the by. Monty said there is no magic only Dust and science back in vol 1 or 2 during a lifestream I think it was. Now in vol 6 we know Magic has always been part of it.


    And no on the distraction or moving on. People are VERY good at figuring out what is not said if someone asked is Raven the real maiden? And they moved on it would say volumes worth of things. And if they tried to say what is technically true it would again say volumes worth of things.


    Sometimes to preserve a good twist you have to lie to your audience shows do it all the time. And sometimes the lie is a lie while also being true. You have it where something is thought to be not true or fake and have everyone operate on that assumption when the reality is that it is true but no one realizes that. Magic in RWBY is one such Lie that is true at the same time.

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33758352 - 2 months ago

    In reply to JROY


    Aw... I wonder what the context was for the questions you posed and the answers that Gray gave - it's a bit of a frustrating situation for an creator, because at the same time, they could very well be telling the truth.


    As an audience, we really can't tell between the truth and the lie, as much as we can convince ourselves of one or the other. 

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33758361 - 2 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Here I have a few objections.

    Under the assumption that the show has aspirations for the audience to try to project what is happening, explicit misdirections offscreen are unacceptable at least for me.


    The question "Is Raven the real maiden" is to be answered with "Nice try, chum, next question". And this gives absolutely nothing away if you answer any questions regarding speculation the same way.

    Since this hypothetical question is not backed up by evidence you can brush it off, it's the same as someone asking "Is Winter Schnee the winter maiden?" or "Does Pyrrha come back?".

    You obviously get a problem, when evidence is forwarded (no flame eyes, person with mask present). If you then insist that Vernal is the maiden to protect your plot twist, you are a rotten cheater. The challenge is to dish out just enough hints so that it is conclusive with afterthought or that the audience even has a fair chance of busting you. Authors should have the guts not to cheat when they are defeated fairly and if you are disciplined, you can just reject to comment on upcoming events. If you do not have a habit of blabbing in other cases, this is enough.


    I do not believe that "magic" was lying, because I surmise they were honest when the question was asked. Moreover this pool of separate superpower sources is a laugh. There is no real difference between them. And the authors are "attacked" for their handling of this issue, but in a humorous way, because it is just them being pompous without much influence for the story.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758364 - 2 months ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    You can have objections doesnt mean they are valid.


    No the question is Raven the real maiden answered with Nice try DOES give a lot away. Just like when someone asked if Ruby was having those Pyrrha dreams out of stress and Miles basically said yes let us go with that moving on. 

    It says without saying.


    No I am sorry but your argument that you are a rotten cheater just because you reinforce the twist you are trying to sell to your audience is not correct. In fact that argument using your own words is a rotten cheater and you trying to say they have no guts for doing it is being a rotten cheater.

    Because the point is the SHOW not the author tells you what is going on. 

    You are holding to a standard no one else does or even tries to follow. Lying to your audience is a long and time honored tradition because people are not dumb. People can and do figure things out quickly so sometimes you have to take steps to help throw them off so they dont wreck your story twist.


    Magic was 100% lying sorry but that is a fact. They went on air answered questions about Dust and flat out said there was no magic only dust and Science. 

    And no they werent honest when they answered Magic has always been a part of the story. The 2 gods for example? That was Miles first big thing he gave to the show based on a dream he had he told it to monty the next day and they hashed out the gods as we know them. 

    So how can they be honest to say no Magic when before we even saw the first episode Magic has always been a part of the series just hidden from us? Answer its not.

    So they did lie.


    No the laugh is your argument plain and simple it makes no sense and is clearly goal post moving. And there is a real difference between the powers. We have Dust Aura Science and Magic. Aura every living thing has even if its not awake and active, Dust is a mineral when applied right activates, science is science, and Magic is something with VERY clear rules on who does and doesnt get it for example currently outside of Oz no Male can use magic as the only passable magic the Maidens goes to Women.

    Those are clear separate pools of power.based on what the show has told us.


    No one has attacked the authors on that. I am not sure where you pulled that from but most people actually understand they lied to protect the plot twist and here is the important thing do not hold that against them.

  • acw28

    acw28

    #33758365 - 2 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    See that's always the thing though, why did Qrow have to train Ruby in the first place? We know that Tai trained Yang, so why couldn't he train Ruby at the same time? It's been illustrated that Tai is a very "hands on" fighter, yet his own daughter was next to useless without Crescent Rose. And it's not like she's a hopeless case that just can't learn, she picked up Oz's teachings fairly quickly during Volume Five.


    In reply to mach56gs

    Yeah, that's always been a little strange to me. The previous year the entire crew were being very secretive about Pyrrha's ultimate fate save for Jen's statement about this chapter being over (paraphrasing there), but then the next year a volunteer at the convention asks the question outside of a panel/official forum (nothing against you JROY, just pointing out the oddity) and they just get a casual answer to something the fandom had been debating about. It's not so much the confirmation, just such the about face in handling the information.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758366 - 2 months ago

    In reply to acw28

    I think the issue and this is meant in now way to slam Jroy but I think Gray didnt want to answer the question so it was easier to go with the dead angle as its the easiest to over turn and everyone would understand no question.

    So being asked that question and putting him in a spot Gray just went she is dead.

    Something to remind people Gray ALSO said they were open to bringing her back if they found a cool way to do it.

    So Gray may have been balancing on that razor edge.


    As for the training that is actually easy to understand. Yang is 2 years older then Ruby Tai also teaches at signal. While Qrow also teaches at signal its clear that was just a cover and he only sometimes taught. 

    All this together means Tai probably taught Yang while she was at Signal as well as before while Ruby due to the gap was left more in Qrow's care which lead to HIM teaching Ruby.

    Or since we know Ruby loves cool weapon designs and Qrow has a VERY cool sword she just wanted a cool weapon like her uncle Qrow and it fell into place there.

    And based on Yang's short its clear before Ozpin she really wasnt interested in learning Hand to hand. Pyrrha probably opened her eyes.

  • acw28

    acw28

    #33758367 - 2 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    But why the scythe? We can see Qrow's primary weapon is a sword, so why not teach her that?

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758369 - 2 months ago

    In reply to acw28

    You do know his weapon actually turns into a scythe right? And Qrow based HIS weapon on Maria's which is a double scythe design.

    The Scythe is the primary his sword is when its not a good idea to have it out due to range or limits on motion or when he is just playing around and not serious. 

    With Winter he wasnt serious till the last part, during the invasion when he needed to defend Ironwood quickly he turned it into a scythe. When facing Tyrian who is quick the longer scythe made no sense to use. Even the flashback when he saved young Yang and Ruby he used the scythe.

    And keep in mind Ozpin recognized Ruby by her scythe style as being like Qrow's. All this says the primary is the Scythe and the secondary is actually the sword. He just starts on secondary till he decides he needs to cut loose.


    Also Ruby may not like to use a sword. Keep in mind Qrow based his on Maria's yet his weapon while sharing a scythe design is not the same as hers and Ruby despite being trained by Qrow is clearly different.

    So its not hard to say its just personal choice and she likes the scythe 

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33758370 - 2 months ago

    RE: Question on Pyrrha


    I'm in agreement with Revan - asking the question about a character being dead or not warrants a pretty obvious answer, regardless on what could happen in the future. There isn't anything strange about the circumstances of the response, or how the response was delivered... in either world the only rational answer a writer can give is the current canonical one.

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758371 - 2 months ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    If Pyrrha was indeed dead dead,

    She's definitely dead fam. Her death is part of Jaune's origin story. Brining her back would be like brining back Uncle Ben, or Bruce Wayne's Parents. Her death acts as a constant driving motivator for him. Brining her back not only undoes all of that but directly goes against one of the themes the story is trying to convey. To accept death as a natural part of life. To do otherwise makes you no different than Salem. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758373 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    No see that is wrong.

    It doesnt undo that at all. In fact it underscores it because now they have to deal with all the pain issues and then Pyrrha back with HER pain and issues through whatever methods gave it to her.

    Also that isnt a theme that was what the GODS were trying to punish Salem with and we know the Gods bit of a jerk on both their parts.

    It also has the issue that Salem was trying to bring back Ozma because of her grief because she couldnt let him go. If Pyrrha is brought back by someone who is not jaune it neatly sidesteps that issue.

    Also not accepting death as a natural part of life doesnt make you no different then Salem to think that misses the point of Salem. Which Salem was willing to defy the gods control them even overthrow them just to get what she wanted. For her it didnt matter what was the rules it was in her way.


    If Pyrrha is brought back by any other means then Jaune going out and saying screw death I am bringing her back then it completely misses the issue with Salem.


    Also if you pay attention there is a LOT of weird things about Pyrrha going on 3 volumes after her "death"


    Sorry "fam" she isnt definitely dead never coming back or any other rubbish you want to throw out.


  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758374 - 2 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    It doesnt undo that at all. 

    It absolutely does. That great failure is what drives him. Taking that away not only muddles the character development but again, it flies in the face of the themes. 


    Also that isnt a theme that was what the GODS were trying to punish Salem with 

    Yes, hence why it's a theme in the first place. Thats how themes work. It's part of the moral of her story. That Life & Death are part of a delicate balance. Only by understanding the necessity of life & death and why she can't simply bring back whomever she wants will Salem be allowed to move on. 


    If Pyrrha is brought back by someone who is not jaune it neatly sidesteps that issue.

    No it doesn't, because once again, "Life & Death are part of a delicate balance". They can't undo the past all they can try to do is move forward. Which is again another theme the story is trying to convey. That the characters don't simply get to go back and undo past mistakes, they need to learn to move beyond them. 


    Which Salem was willing to defy the gods control them even overthrow them just to get what she wanted. 

    That was only a part of it. That wasn't the reason he denied her request in the first place. 


    If Pyrrha is brought back by any other means then Jaune going out and saying screw death I am bringing her back then it completely misses the issue with Salem.

    It doesn't at all. Salem's tale is essentially the crux of the narrative. It's what the entire story is about. Getting this person to accept death. Doesn't make any sense to tell her that she can't bring someone back because it distorts the balance of life & death, only to allow another character to come back distorting said balance like it's nothing. 


    Also if you pay attention there is a LOT of weird things about Pyrrha going on 3 volumes after her "death"

    Most of which is no doubt entirely up to interpretation. 

  • Ace-of-Rogues

    Ace-of-Rogues FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Main Weapon: Rapier Wit

    #33758375 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    That's not the best comparison. Neither Bruce Wayne's parents nor Uncle Ben were proper characters. They existed in the story for the sole purpose of dying to give the hero a tragic backstory and motivation. In contrast Pyrrha was a fully developed character who stood on her own rather than being defined solely by her relation to someone else. Thus bringing her back would be a completely different matter than bring back the Waynes or Ben Parker; their return would only matter in how it affected Bruce or Peter, in contrast Pyrrha's return would likely focus not only on how it has affected Our Heroes, but how it has affected her. That alone creates a plethora of new and interesting directions such a storyline could take that the return of someone like Uncle Ben wouldn't.

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33758376 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy She needs to be brought back to solve both of Team Jnpr's problems. I and a lot of people want her back. I and others want an Arkos future. But that is not the only reason I want her back.

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33758377 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    On the topic of Obi Wan, it's funny that he actually does come back, and is revealed to not be dead but 'one with the force'. That does not remove Luke's development. Likewise, even if Pyrrha comes back, she would certainly not come back the same Pyrrha - and thus will lead to more development for JNPR, not some reversal of growth. There is no causal chain that forces you to revert to a previous version of yourself due to the return of an old friend - like "The Winter Soldier" or "Gandalf the White", a return often spells new growth and an expansion of possibilities, not regression.


    And thematically, Pyrrha's story does not have to conform to Salem's. The gods and their grand opinions of life and death were not adequately characterized as the moral standard, as they majorly bollocksed Remnant in the first place with giving Salem + Ozpin such complex and petty life altering conditions on personal whims. If you think the Gods opinions are right, you're also agreeing that all of humanity deserved to be wiped out by the God of Darkness... yeah, no. They were jerks.


    I say that the overall theme of RWBY is not Salem's acceptance of death, but rather the spirit of Monty/Qrow + Ruby - to keep moving forward and being the master of your own story. That can certainly apply to Jaune and Pyrrha if, by design of the story, they are able to triumph over their tragic roots.  


    Jaune did not fail Pyrrha, there is barely any guilt to Jaune, only trauma and survivor's guilt. Most of the blame is ethereal and attributed soley to the writers: Cinder using Pyrrha as a tool in Penny's death and Beacon's fall, Ozpin giving Pyrrha a very inadequate offer with a lot of hidden details (Salem), Pyrrha's conception of Destiny that only reared it's head in Volume 3. It is less about Jaune accepting death and more of Jaune learning to "move forward" in spite of tragedy.


    So, there is no thematic certainty in Pyrrha's condition. Yes, Salem serves as a warning to those who cannot cope with loss, but that is not the same theme as saying that you should always strive for something better.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758378 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy 

    it doesn't actually. Ren and Nora had to tell him his great motivator? Self destructive and not healthy that was the whole point of rhw telling him not to use Pyrrha memory like that.

    So no it doesn't undo nor muddle themes they aren't trying to do.


    No that isn't a theme because if you notice ozma brought back by God of light flat out breaks that. You are taking a heavy handed punishment and trying to make it a theme rwby isn't saying.


    No god of light break the delicate balance argument as he revives ozma also there is no theme about accepting and not trying to fix your mistake. In fact the opposite because this whole thing is about fixing a mistake.


    No it wasn't but that is the actual theme of salem.


    Salem isn't about accepting death and hasn't been since the gods told her that. They wronged her and she made it worse. And again ozma flat breaks your argument.


    Actually no it's not this is a real theme in rwby weird things turn out to be important it keeps happening. Cinder oz Ruby Blake yang qrow and so forth weird odd things that don't fit so far all have been important.


    From my phone

  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.3

    #33758384 - 2 months ago

    Well Weiss lost DB, the way everyobe was talking about tge other chick that kinda doesn't surprise me.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33758387 - 2 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Asking if "Ruby has dreams about Pyrrha because of stress" is also a nice try. But psychologically speaking a better one, because you forward a false solution hoping to extract a denial.

    In general you should not forward relevant information off-screen, I would reject answering this question too, whether true or not. You should learn some lawerly general reject by heart to not give away anything.

    The actual screentime has to include all relevant clues in a way that it is possible to guess future developments with a reasonable chance and it has to make full sense in hindsight after the corresponding reveal.

    If busted, lying will not save your plot. If you have a murder mystery running and drop too many clues and someone solves perpetrator, method and motive 5 episodes before your conclusion, then you have to grit your teeth and go through it - without blabbing. Outright lying will ruin the experience for everyone, because you would exclude the real perpetrator from the suspects. This would only work once, but afterwards your credibility would be down the drain.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33758388 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    There are characters who do not share God of Light's balance philosophy. His brother went against it to piss him off on purpose. The condition to pacify Salem is to see this balance's value, implying that she currently does not.

    I still do not believe that revival is likely. It was not included in the original magic package, or Salem would not have had to consult the Gods. There was not even sufficient healing power to rescue Ozma before dying. And it would be strange slip on GoL's side to provide the means for revival via relics.

    You may have soul transfer and by extension soul steal though.


  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758389 - 2 months ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    You are flat out wrong they have already been busted lying it hasn't ruined any experience nor their credibility because the thing is they don't lie about everything only some things and we may not realize they are lying till after.

    This is not a new discussion in this thread most people fall on not an issue if the lie is to protect the plot and or twists.


    People as a whole understand and respect stopping spoilers which what you think works to stopping them actually doesn't. The dreams for example everyone even people who don't think Pyrrha is up noticed they moved the discussion and quickly which says a lot.


    Some times the only thing an author can do is lie.

    From my phone

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758394 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    That's not the best comparison. Neither Bruce Wayne's parents nor Uncle Ben were proper characters. They existed in the story for the sole purpose of dying to give the hero a tragic backstory and motivation.


    Thats literally the same case with Pyrrha though. Since they planned to kill her off since the beginning. Meaning that she was created and killed for the sole purpose of developing Jaune.