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Pyrrha Nikos general discussion

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  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758396 - 2 months ago

    In reply to NickPotterfi

    Yeah this just sounds like wishful thinking. I get that you want her back. I did too for a while. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. 

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33758397 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy


    I must say, I do commend you for even engaging in a 1600 page-long discussion.


    This is a simple disagreement - one could easily say that the writers have planned for Pyrrha to die first, and then come back to life later in the story.


    Not that you’re wrong, but you could be,  with RWBY still ongoing and all of the magic flying about.

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758398 - 2 months ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    On the topic of Obi Wan, it's funny that he actually does come back, and is revealed to not be dead but 'one with the force'. 

    He comes back as an ethereal spirit. Thats not the same as being brought back to life. 


    And thematically, Pyrrha's story does not have to conform to Salem's. The gods and their grand opinions of life and death were not adequately characterized as the moral standard, 

    Again, thats not how a theme works. Her story isn't "conforming" to Salem's. Merely commenting on the lesson. Which is to accept death. Jaune has accepted Pyrrha's death. Ruby has accepted Summer's death. Salem did not, could not accept Ozma's death. Thus she's punished by the narrative. Shown to be in the wrong. Whether the gods are jerks or not has nothing to do with the thematic message. It doesn't matter whose saying it. Only who the narrative rewards and punishes. 


    I say that the overall theme of RWBY is not Salem's acceptance of death, but rather the spirit of Monty/Qrow + Ruby - to keep moving forward and being the master of your own story. 

    As I already said, it's both of those things. 


    Jaune did not fail Pyrrha, there is barely any guilt to Jaune, 

    The point is that Jaune feels he did. Even of he knows objectively that it's not his fault. 

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758399 - 2 months ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    In reply to EmperorLuffy
    I must say, I do commend you for even engaging in a 1600 page-long discussion.

    This is a simple disagreement - one could easily say that the writers have planned for Pyrrha to die first, and then come back to life later in the story.
    Not that you’re wrong, but you could be,  with RWBY still ongoing and all of the magic flying about.

    I was in the mood. I was gonna stir up a discussion with my other thread but I guess people don't like reading long posts. lol. 


    You are correct in that regard. The only question now is whether or not she should come back. I'd prefer it if it wasn't a question of "want" because the wants and whims of the fanbase don't necessarily work best for the narrative. 

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758400 - 2 months ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    There are characters who do not share God of Light's balance philosophy.

    Again it's not really about sharing his philosophy but simply how a theme is expressed throughout a story. 

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33758401 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy


    Still much more significant than just “dead”. The same can be said for Gandalf and Bucky Barnes - point is that the death of a friend/mentor isn’t always the end of their role in the story.


    First off, Ruby’s feelings over Summer haven’t been properly explored, so while it’s pretty clear she’s central to the “move forward” theme, we have yet to have her address her loss.


    If there is a theme in RWBY revolves around losing someone, Blake, Yang and Weiss are sore thumbs - no, the theme is about moving past tragedy, whether it is PTSD and a lost limb or a broken movement/broken friendship or a lost childhood. The narrative uses death, but not exclusively death - loss can take many forms. (On the topic of the narrative rewarding and punishing: the rewards that Yang, Blake, Ren and Nora have reaped are far more fruitful than whatever Jaune got, and I’m not too keen on this thematic inequality for characters, either.)

    And Jaune’s guilt is hardly characterized, even during “Lost”. With all of the exposition and depth other characters get, I’m not too forgiving for such a vague exploration of Jaune’s feelings and mental state, especially when it demanded so much attention in the V5 finale.

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758402 - 2 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    In reply to EmperorLuffy 

    it doesn't actually. Ren and Nora had to tell him his great motivator? Self destructive and not healthy 

    Only because he was grieving. He wasn't accepting her death and using it as inspiration as he is now. 


    No that isn't a theme because if you notice ozma brought back by God of light flat out breaks that. You are taking a heavy handed punishment

    No god of light break the delicate balance argument 

    This doesn't work as a counter argument. He didn't bring Ozma back on a whim but only because he had hope he could teach Salem her lesson and help remake humanity. It was a special circumstance meant to serve a purpose. If Salem had simply moved on he wouldn't have had to. 


    Salem isn't about accepting death and hasn't been since the gods told her that.

    Again it's literally the point of her entire story. She's cursed because she couldn't learn to accept death and will only be allowed to die once she learns to do so. Once again it's the theme of her story and will ultimately be the resolution to the story of RWBY as a whole. As such having a character come back from the dead simply because it would make a lot of fans happy would fly in the face of all that. 

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33758403 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy


    I agree in the most part, but I always feel that in most discussions, I must first establish the mere possibility of she “could” come back. Some people are so dead set that Pyrrha’s death is canonically impossible - not a good hill to die on, I feel.


    I can understand the logic behind the “learn to respect death” camp. My problem is that it is typically used as a word-of-god to 100% confirm that Pyrrha should not come back because of it’s thematic implications.


    I agree it may come to pass, but on the same token, the Gods of Light and Darkness, despite being gods, did not come across as pure impartial beings to make such judgement. Qrow’s lectures to Yang and Ruby’s in Volume 3? Ruby’s letter in volume 4? Those strike more at the thematic core of RWBY than what some glowy bois who gave us Salem and Ozpin.

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758404 - 2 months ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    In reply to EmperorLuffy
    Still much more significant than just “dead”. 

    Which is moot. As my point is simply that her coming back alive and in the flesh doesn't mesh well with the story. 


    If they wanna do something like temporarily see her in Cinder's Aura or something I wouldn't be opposed to it. 


    The same can be said for Gandalf and Bucky Barnes - point is that the death of a friend/mentor isn’t always the end of their role in the story.

    Maybe, but for Pyrrha it should be. She's served her purpose. Her story is done. Everyone is learning to move on. Cope with the loss. She doesn't need to be brought back. 


    First off, Ruby’s feelings over Summer haven’t been properly explored, so while it’s pretty clear she’s central to the “move forward” theme, we have yet to have her address her loss. 


    For this argument, we don't really need to. It's pretty clear that even if she may miss her mother that she's moved on. If I recall correctly that was her motivation for becoming a Huntress in the first place. 


    If there is a theme in RWBY revolves around losing someone, Blake, Yang and Weiss are sore thumbs 

    Doesn't really change my point. A theme doesn't have to be expressed through literally all of the characters. 


    the theme is about moving past tragedy

    Like I've already said, both of those are themes in RWBY. A story can have more than one theme. 

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758405 - 2 months ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    In reply to EmperorLuffy
    I agree in the most part, but I always feel that in most discussions, I must first establish the mere possibility of she “could” come back. Some people are so dead set that Pyrrha’s death is canonically impossible - not a good hill to die on, I feel.


    I agree it may come to pass, but on the same token, the Gods of Light and Darkness, despite being gods, did not come across as pure impartial beings to make such judgement. Qrow’s lectures to Yang and Ruby’s in Volume 3? Ruby’s letter in volume 4? Those strike more at the thematic core of RWBY than what some glowy bois who gave us Salem and Ozpin.

    I can accept that it's possible but I argue it's highly unlikely. Much like the characters the fans need to learn to move on. 


    Regardless of how people feel about the Gods all of those things are the themes of RWBY. Neither is less or more than the other. They all work together to make the narrative what it is. 

  • DrowVampyre

    DrowVampyre

    #33758406 - 2 months ago

    Luffy, I'd agree with most of what you're saying except that it's very strange that, if her story is done, CRWBY has spent so much time and effort on her after her death and been weirdly evasive about her. From a production standpoint, that makes no sense, particularly when most of that hasn't really had any impact on any other character. It kinda points to her role not being done, unless CRWBY is just intentionally torturing the audience which also doesn't really make sense. 


    Moreover, to put as much effort into developing her character prior to her death as they did and then fridge her also doesn't make sense, not to mention fridging her in the first place given the tastelessness of such a thing. Is it a guarantee? No, of course not, but she's really not the Uncle Ben of the story (that'd be Summer), and while any one of the peculiarities surrounding CRWBY's treatment of Pyrrha could be easily ignored as a fluke, with so many of them it practically has to be intentional, and if the purpose of that isn't to continue her story in some manner then what is it?

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33758407 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy


    Once again, your opinion that Pyrrha was made to die is an position that you’re presupposing to be true. You’re denying the possibility that she was written to come back to life... on the premise that she was written to die and stay dead. 


    The theme of “moving forward” is conveyed through pretty much all of the characters, especially the main cast (RWBYJNPR)... That's why I consider it the main theme of the story. It’s a universal message, and Pyrrha coming back to life is compatible with that theme. Because of that, I think “accepting death” is redundant and secondary, and arguably not so convincing as a reason as to why Pyrrha can’t come back.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758408 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    No that is you twisting it he accepted her death he just was torn up about hard to grieve if you don't accept it.


    No that isn't true at all salem was a non matter at the time he brought ozma back. So no ozma still stands.


    No that isn't the whole point of rwby nor is it salem story at all. Your are pushing a false narrative. Because right now no one can do anything but accept death. Salem was only able to do that because of the gods. While there is hints that revival might come from other sources right now we don't have that confirmed. So hard to argue that theme when no one can do anything about it.

    And it's not salem either do the fact now she wants to kill ozpin and clearly hates him. So she is no longer burden by his death and it's only the immortality the god of light gave him in violation of your theme that keeps ozpin around.


    No the real theme of rwby is mistakes acknowledging them and trying to fix them as you can.

    From my phone

  • Ace-of-Rogues

    Ace-of-Rogues FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Main Weapon: Rapier Wit

    #33758411 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    No, the difference is that being killed off was part of her own character arc, rather than her death solely being a part of some else's arc. While this is a callous way of putting it, Ben Parker and the Waynes were essentially set pieces when they were first written; their only job was to be important to the hero and then be killed. They passively shaped the story. In contrast, Pyrrha actively shaped the story, taking part in significant events culminating (thus far) in her death on the tower. Tellingly, rather than suffering from a fatal case of wrong-place-wrong-time, Pyrrha chose to go up that tower. Thus her death was about her character, who she was, just as much as it was about what it would mean to people like Ruby and Jaune. Thus if she was brought back it wouldn't simply be a reversal of what happened because, all the myriad ways Our Heroes would react to it aside, there would be as much focus on how she, Pyrrha Nikos, was coping with that turn of events. It would be about her, not just about Ruby or Jaune.

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758413 - 2 months ago

    In reply to DrowVampyre

    Luffy, I'd agree with most of what you're saying except that it's very strange that, if her story is done, CRWBY has spent so much time and effort on her after her death and been weirdly evasive about her. From a production standpoint, that makes no sense, particularly when most of that hasn't really had any impact on any other character. It kinda points to her role not being done, unless CRWBY is just intentionally torturing the audience which also doesn't really make sense. 

    I agree. However it's not unusual for a character to get development after their death, via flashbacks or characterization from other characters. I don't think it means they're bringing her back to life but the character can still have a role even after her death. 

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758414 - 2 months ago

    In reply to mach56gs


    Once again, your opinion that Pyrrha was made to die is an position that you’re presupposing to be true.

    It's not merely an opinion I'm simply recollecting it being stated that she was meant to die from the start. 


    You’re denying the possibility that she was written to come back to life..

    It's less "denying" and moreso just asserting that it's highly unlikely. If you want to suggest it's "possible" thats fine, but no one has any real reason to believe she will come back or even that she should. A lot of people just really really want her to. 


    The theme of “moving forward” is conveyed through pretty much all of the characters, especially the main cast (RWBYJNPR)... That's why I consider it the main theme of the story. 

    Again, thats fine. Nothing wrong that. A story will often have multiple themes. Whether or not it's the main one is hardly relevant. 


    Pyrrha coming back to life is compatible with that theme. 

    This is a bit of a stretch. But even if that was the case having it contradict another theme is not a good idea for the story. 


    Because of that, I think “accepting death” is redundant and secondary, 

    Even if you argued it was a secondary theme, that doesn't make it redundant or unimportant. Love is also a theme in RWBY. However I don't think anyone here would argue that it's completely unimportant at all. 

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758415 - 2 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    No that is you twisting it
    No that isn't true at all
    No that isn't the whole point of rwby nor is it salem story at all. Your are pushing a false narrative.
    No the real theme of rwby is mistakes acknowledging them and trying to fix them as you can.

    I'm sorry but, you haven't really provided an actual rebuttal to anything I've said. You've essentially just asserted: "No, Nuh uh you're wrong."

    And there is no "real" theme. A story can have numerous themes. No single one is more "real" than any other. All of it is part of the story. 

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758416 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    No, the difference is that being killed off was part of her own character arc, 

    Again, even if you argue it was her arc it still ultimately serves the purpose of developing Jaune in the same manner as the aforementioned characters. Theres more points to be made about Pyrrha existing solely for Jaune's sake but it's late. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758417 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    No that has actually been you.

    You keep saying a theme which is countered by ozma and the god of light who break your theme and no one actually follows. Your whole theme breaks down because it only applies to Salem and no one else as no one else tries to deny death not even jaune the person most effected by death.

    And there is in fact real themes yes they can have more but there is without question a real theme and it's you make mistakes and you try to fix them to the best of your ability as you live.


    You are the one who hasn't given a real rebuttal and has literally been saying no this theme no one talks about discusses or even tries to prove is a major over reaching theme of rwby.


    Sorry but the one going nuh huh has been you this whole time all of us have been calling you on it.


    From my phone

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33758420 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy


    Just because the writers have said Pyrrha was “meant to die from the start” or whatever you remember isn’t conclusive - as I have said, that doesn’t mean Pyrrha wasn’t also written to return from beyond as well. 


    It is fair to take the writers at their word and suppose it is true, but as I’ve said, that is not an valid premise or argument for the conclusion you are attempting to draw.


    I have plenty of real reason to expect a return, but I’m on mobile at the moment. Do you want an essay or a google doc link?


    A main theme overrides a minor theme that some people are blowing out of proportion. I honestly think the “come to appreciate death” aspect is just another application of the main theme that people are inflating to be way more important than it actually is.


    Love is a pretty flexible scene that allows for Yang hugging Weiss and punching Oscar/Ozpin. This “death” theme is being used as an unnecessary stonewall.

  • Ace-of-Rogues

    Ace-of-Rogues FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Main Weapon: Rapier Wit

    #33758422 - 2 months ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    It actually doesn't though. Keep in mind, both Peter Parker and Bruce Wayne are in their own ways deeply disturbed people. Peter has taken his Uncle Ben's "power and responsibility" line to heart so thoroughly that several people have noted that his obsession with responsibility borders on the pathological and the feeling that he has or is failing people has sent him into crippling depression more than once. As for Bruce, multiple incarnations of Dick Grayson, arguably the most well-adjusted Robin, have said that they don't want to be like Batman, because there's something dark at the core of his motivation, his drive, that Grayson doesn't want to make part of himself. Making someone else your sole reason to exist, your sole purpose in the world, is not a healthy mindset. Part of what they were doing with the mysterious Red Haired Woman scene was getting that fixation, that obsession, out of Jaune. Thus having her come back would not undermine his current motivation because the scene was about him choosing to fight because it's the right thing, not because it's what Pyrrha would have done or because he wants to honor or avenge her. He's let go.

  • Ace-of-Rogues

    Ace-of-Rogues FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Main Weapon: Rapier Wit

    #33758423 - 2 months ago

    Okay, since I rewatched the RHW scene from "Lost" to refresh my memory about that scene for my previous post there's one really important part I just notice this time and want to mention. One of the first things Jaune says about the statue is that "She (Pyrrha) should be standing here". The RHW's response:

    "She is".


    And she seems to backpedal from there, like she said too much or something she shouldn't have. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. But that simple line being one of the first things an unidentified character says about someone who's supposed to be dead is really making me think the RHW is Pyrrha in some way.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758424 - 2 months ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    No you are not wishful thinking I noticed it too and I know for a FACT other people have as well.

    Add in how she just vanishes without a noise or motion. Her walking up makes snow crunching noises Ren and Nora walking up make snow crunching noises yet RHW leaving makes no noise? Odd.

    Add in Jaune was right beside her and didnt notice in the like 2 seconds he was turning away her leaving? Again odd. Especially since she left the flowers at the statues feet which she was holding when talking to Jaune.

    Then there is the leaf that brought Jaune to the statue and same leaf as the camera pans away.


    All of this is VERY VERY odd. 

    And odd tends to be important in RWBY from everything we have seen.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33758429 - 2 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    You should keep in mind that the authors are in total control of the story explicitly not bound by logic. They do not even have to obey laws of nature. Guessing their (the author's) "themes" and even more their priority when clashing has no sufficient ground to go "truth", "no" and the like. You may even be wrong when you agree and if you don't, the auhors may have pulled a third option.

    You would save a lot of typing if you just skipped the fillers stating your conviction of being right.


    If you want to forward predictions then state them and let's see what is correct, even if it takes some time.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758433 - 2 months ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    That isnt true at all.

    All stories have a logic and reasoning to them. While it is true they dont need to obey laws of nature a good author will keep the laws of their world in mind and work with those.

    If we were still in volumes 1 or 2 you would have grounds to say that but not volume 6 what is more or less the half way part of the story. By now we have seen enough to see the themes that shape and mold the story. What it focuses on and what it doesnt. 

    All stories have themes and concepts that are the core of the story that shape and mold what is to come. As an example Persona 4's over reaching theme is the search of truth real truth not easy answers. Betraying that nets you the bad ending. Same for Persona 5 which is about freedom of self from society and other people binding accepting the easy answer that binds you is the route of the bad end.

    All stories have a theme and become very obvious as the story progresses.

    Also what makes your argument break down even further is that they have told us there are themes. Each season has a central theme to it a concept that shape most of what is going on so of those are simple like vol 1 being just discovery of the world while others are more complex like vol 4 which is about picking up the pieces after a horrible event.



    We would ALL skip a lot of typing if you Baked realized much of what you type is not correct and is based on faulty logic and your desire to issue "challenges".