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Pyrrha Nikos general discussion

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  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758436 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    No that has actually been you.

    Again, you're really just proving my point here. You've literally just responded to me with: "No U"

    You keep saying a theme which is countered by ozma and the god of light who break your theme

    Once again, Ozma is an exception. He was brought back not to disturb the balance but to restore it. Once he does that, they will both disappear. 


    This is not "my" theme. It's the literal definition of what a theme is and exactly how it's written in stories. LiteraryDevices-Theme


    Character Arc = Theme. What the story is trying to convey through a character's journey. 


    Star Wars: How to Create Character Arcs


    Heres an example of a Character's Theme outlined by a literal Book on Story Structure. Using characters from the Book Dreamlander:


    Weakness: Chris Redston is selfish and irresponsible: He spends his life in search of the next big
    adrenaline trip, not really caring whom he lets down or hurts along the way.
    Who is he hurting? His dad, Joe, random bystanders, Brooke, Lisa, Mike.
    What does this character want? Chris wants to make the dreams stop.
    What does this character need? To take responsibility for his actions and sacrifice himself for the
    good of others.
    What does he know at the beginning? That people shirk their responsibilities and hurt you, and that
    life is always just one step away from catastrophe, so you might as well live it to the hilt. Excitement
    kills the pain and proves you’re still alive. If you never act responsible, then no one will expect you
    to be responsible, or be hurt when you fail to be responsible. (His fear of injuring others is buried
    deep in his unstated psyche. He would never tell you that.)
    What is he wrong about in the beginning? He thinks the best way to avoid hurting people is to
    avoid responsibility. He thinks the only way to feel alive is to risk his life.
    What will he learn at the end? To take responsibility for his actions and act for others above
    himself.
    Hero’s central problem: The realization that taking responsibility isn’t just a flippant decision;
    sometimes it’s a soul-deep commitment.
    Thematic principle: Force an irresponsible young man to learn responsibility when his actions
    endanger two worlds.
    Theme: If you’re going to succeed as a human being, you have to take responsibility for your
    actions, even if it means losing what you love most.


    Salem is the protagonist of her own story. Her story and her Fall Arc is what sets the entire story into motion and the story will only end once it's resolves. Thats an overarching theme. Again, the literal definition of a thematic argument. 

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758438 - 1 month ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    Just because the writers have said Pyrrha was “meant to die from the start” or whatever you remember isn’t conclusive - as I have said, that doesn’t mean Pyrrha wasn’t also written to return from beyond as well. 

    Maybe but it's all we have. As such there is little to no reason to think that Pyrrha would come back or even that she should. 


    It is fair to take the writers at their word and suppose it is true, but as I’ve said, that is not an valid premise or argument for the conclusion you are attempting to draw.

    I'm only arguing that I have no reason to think Pyrrha would come back based on what we know. 


    I have plenty of real reason to expect a return, but I’m on mobile at the moment. Do you want an essay or a google doc link?

    You can post it if you want to, but I'm honestly not that interested. I might check it out whenever the mood strikes me. 


    A main theme overrides a minor theme that some people are blowing out of proportion. 

    Themes don't really "override" one another, and like I've said this isn't really a minor theme at all. Just the opposite actually. It's the primary theme of the story. 

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758439 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    It actually doesn't though. Keep in mind, both Peter Parker and Bruce Wayne are in their own ways deeply disturbed people. Peter has taken his Uncle Ben's "power and responsibility" line to heart so thoroughly that several people have noted that his obsession with responsibility borders on the pathological and the feeling that he has or is failing people has sent him into crippling depression more than once. As for Bruce, multiple incarnations of Dick Grayson, arguably the most well-adjusted Robin, have said that they don't want to be like Batman, because there's something dark at the core of his motivation, his drive, that Grayson doesn't want to make part of himself. Making someone else your sole reason to exist, your sole purpose in the world, is not a healthy mindset. Part of what they were doing with the mysterious Red Haired Woman scene was getting that fixation, that obsession, out of Jaune. Thus having her come back would not undermine his current motivation because the scene was about him choosing to fight because it's the right thing, not because it's what Pyrrha would have done or because he wants to honor or avenge her. He's let go.

    Just to clarify I wasn't suggesting that Jaune was making Pyrrha his sole reason to exist but rather the writers did that. Most of her significant moments in the story revolve around Jaune.


    However, you make a fine argument and I will concede that bringing Pyrrha back doesn't really undo Jaune's development. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758441 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    No that isnt proving your point its outlining that is you saying this and then explaining why I dont think you are correct aka a rebuttal.

    You keep saying no this theme that isnt used by anyone in the show overrides everything else shown by the show. Things shown by the show that flat out go against what you are saying.


    That is what you have been doing and when I have been saying no you are wrong and give reasons for it you ignored it. Its very obvious what you have been doing.

    It has not been any form or shape of me just saying it I have given reasons you just dont like them is all.


    No Ozma isnt the exception he and salem are the only one this applies to and in reality it doesnt even apply to them as both are actively trying to kill the other.

    There currently is no way for anyone to be brought back. They have hinted there might be something out there via Raven but so far there isnt.

    So everyone has to accept death as unlike Salem there is no gods to revive people on the world.


    No it is your theme you took Salem's punishment and spread to everyone and act like its always been there when it hasnt.


    There has been a lot of death in RWBY.

    Vol 2 we had the whitefang being killed from the train as well as hinted at civilians being killed.

    Vol 3 the guards who got overrun by grimm,  Civilians during the battle, Amber, Ozpin, And Pyrrha

    Vol 4 The Huntsman in the village, the village, ren's parents, Ren's village

    Vol 5 Pilot Boi, Vernal, All the Huntsman

    Vol 6 the one Huntsman off the train, All the guards Adam Killed, the victims of the Apathy, Croc and her goons, Ozma and all of humanity, Adam.


    All these people died and yet outside of Salem in regards to Ozma no one acts like they cant move on they cant accept the death. Yeah they are torn up and hurting over it such as Jaune but they arent denying them or acting likes its not normal.


    So the Theme you argue is 100% not be supported by the show.

    Its not like Mistakes where we keep seeing people make mistakes such as Yang with her arm, Blake with her beliefs and so forth where they make a mistake and then learn from it and try not to repeat it.

    Mistakes are an actual thematic argument because it is one repeated over and over again in the show.

    Until the gods brought it up no one was bringing up denying death in the show.

    Not a single person not even Jaune who clearly wished he was the one that died and not Pyrrha.

    A theme which you dont understand is one that is not presented once and never repeated like your argument with Salem actually is but instead is one all the characters run into.

    A good example is this is Rise of the shield hero where all the Heroes are ignorant. Bow Sword and spear are ignorant about how the world really is thinking its a game world and treating it like it is. Shield is Ignorant of the game world and ignorant that some people can be trusted and others cant be. Its a theme that reaching out and trying to learn and understand is the real way to go in Rise of the shield hero.

    Or let us take Goblin Slayer which the theme is you can fight what you hate or fear without submitting to it and becoming it. Slayer is well aware he is like a goblin and often compares himself to them. His friends help him stop being so destructive to himself and relearn what it means to be human which in turn lets him help others that have been harmed like he has to stop them from destroying themselves while also protecting the innocent.

    Those are themes because it keeps repeating the message in different ways sure but the core message remains.


    Salem is not the protagonist she is the antagonist which her failures and the problems do set the motion of the story in play but something you are not getting is the Antagonist's reasons do not shape the story. Her thing with the gods is part of her Motivation not her theme.

    Her theme is not accepting death as part of the natural cycle but arrogance that she can dictate what IS the natural cycle 

    Keep in mind this is not Salem's story never has been its always been Ruby Rose's story and she IS the Protagonist. 

    Many stories also have it where the antagonist is not fully wrong either that their quest and motivations are actually fully justified but they went too far.

    For Salem this is such a case. She was grieving and not thinking clearly when she went to the gods. She went too far and got punished for it but the gods were cruel and vicious with their punishment. aka they made a mistake.


    That is the real theme through out all of this people even gods can make mistakes Salem and the gods are running away from their mistakes denying they did them or not realizing it was a mistake. With Salem we also have the issue the grimm pool may be poisoning her mind as it clearly changed her body.


    But the theme is not accepting death as a natural part of the cycle of life. There has been a lot of death and outside of Salem none of the cast has tried to undo the deaths. They hate they happen wish they never died sure but they dont ever act like they can just find a miracle and fix it like salem did.

    Add in Salem clearly wants to KILL Ozpin who was the one she denied death over. So clearly already that theme just on the basic understanding of the show is sunk.


    And your OWN evidence actually shows this by the Way. Keep in mind you stated Accepting Death as a natural part of Life is the overreaching theme aka a Major theme.

    A major theme is an idea that a writer repeats in his literary work, making it the most significant idea in the work.

    From your source by the by.

    Accepting death has not been presented in 5 volumes nor has it at all been presented as the most significant idea as no one really has the issue of accepting death as no one acts like they can fix the death or didnt happen.

    It has only been attached to one person Salem. its not even attached to Ozpin as Ozpin's deal with the god of light doesnt involve that at all.

    You can argue that its a MINOR THEME for Salem and her alone as it was her unable to accept death that started this but even that runs into the issue the person she couldnt accept death for she clearly wants to kill and HAS killed before he jsut doesnt stay dead.

     

    If you want to argue accepting death as a natural part of the cycle of life in regards to Salem is a theme I would have no real issue with that. Its when you apply it to the rest of the cast who this theme clearly does not apply to that you run into issues.


    Now if it does turn out to be true that there is revival outside of the gods and RWBY JNPR are given a choice I imagine there will be conflict over it questioning if they should or not. It would be a Minor theme which Salem's story feeds into as both RWBY and JNPR are aware of her story but unless the process can be repeated a lot such as with dragon balls for example then it cant become a Major theme. But its also possible they may not have a choice and someone else does it and they just have to deal with the issues from it.

    Such as Pyrrha coming back via Salem as an enemy for example.

    But that wont relate to a theme of accepting death which is not present in RWBY. 

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33758443 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy


    There is reason to believe Pyrrha can come back, and based off of that alone you can't just assume the opposite in order to use it as support for your argument. In effect you are calling the game early when there is still a lot of time left to play. It doesn't matter how you feel, this is simply the situation that the canon has left us in. 


    And the canon has given us many reasons to suspect a return. I wouldn't be here defending it if there wasn't. Since you aren't interested in a comprehensive overview, I presume you know of the various reasons, but stop short at agreeing with the conclusion that Pyrrha returning is canonically + thematically valid.


    Themes don't really "override" one another, and like I've said this isn't really a minor theme at all. Just the opposite actually. It's the primary theme of the story. 

    It is not a primary theme, and I would even say it fails to make the grade as a major theme. As I've said, there are many characters that do not follow this 'accepting death' theme that you push. On top of that, this theme only appeared during Volume 6 - for it to be treated as a primary theme is - I'm sorry - way too premature. Just assuming that Jaune and Pyrrha will follow it all the same as Ozpin and Salem is a preference, not a thematic necessity. 


    "Moving forward" is the main theme that has been made obvious since Volume 1, and characters are often graciously rewarded for it. Yang gets a replacement to her lost arm, rediscovers her bravery, overcomes her PTSD and beats the crap out of the person who took her arm in the first place. Blake finds her courage in spite of the tragedy of Beacon and as a result resurrects an entire civil rights movement, rebuilds a relationship with a 'lost friend' (Illia) and confronts the source of her guilt (Adam). Ren (and Nora) gives closure to the people of Kuroyuri, their lost childhood and avenges Ren's family and start boopin'. None of this is done by "accepting death" - it is overcoming their own pain and weakness.


    Pyrrha's death and Jaune's efforts since stand as a terribly awkward and thematically discordant - Jaune suffers and struggles, practicing in the dead of night for 3 volumes for him to... make peace because of a passive, spiritual excuse of "She's with me in spirit". The revisionist nature of this scene to also characterize Pyrrha's death as some sort of fulfilling death rather than a tragic end is also amazingly discordant with the primary theme of RWBY. 

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33758445 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    About the physical look, I wasn't talking just about the body aspect but also the dressing and colouring especially. If we only consider the bodies, then as you rightfully said, daughters look very much like their mothers and sons like their fathers. But colors in RWBY have always been a fundamental aspect and this is particularly true for the main characters. So back to Yang, Ren and Blake, three of which we are sure of who their parents are and that we saw, we see they are a very well balanced combination of their parents. That is why the case of Ruby is intriguing to me, Tai is supposed to be his father but I don't see anything from him in her (again, essentially the colours). I'm not saying this is proof Tai is not her father, just that this is odd to me. And that is one of the reasons why the Qrow option scores some points for me.

    And so about Ruby's parentage, I know the definition of half sister thank you ! I was exploring this definition with the assumption that Tai is not Ruby's father since Monty did not specifically mention him. The two possiblities we have both result in contradictions: 1) same mother, this would mean Summer is Yang's mom and 2) Qrow can't be their shared father since Tai is Yang's father. So by going with the genetic definition of half sister, Monty's tweet is indeed enough in itself. If by any chance you find back this panel where it was said Yang and Ruby are blood half sisters, this would be great. But I believe you on this. 

    Now as I said, that doesn't prevent me from considering the "adoption" version of the term "half sister". As you discussed with acw28, there is a room for lie for writers. That is precisely why I brought this up as I'm aware that writers can "lie". What if Ruby was simply adopted ? What if the panel you mentionned and what Monty wrote in his tweet was just a story told to us and Ruby and Yang ? Because of some crucial events related to team STRQ that constitute the bomb material of RWBY ?

    I'm perfectly okay with the official version: Tai and Summer are Ruby's parents. When Tai broke up with Raven, it was very likely a hard time for him. Sometimes the formation of new couples can even be accelerated in this situation so why not with Summer, it makes sense. But again, I would then find it very odd that Ruby's appearance (not just her body) does not remind us of both of Summer and Tai. From a show for which colours are very important, I would find it weird to not have coherence at that level for the main character.

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758446 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    and give reasons for it you ignored it. Its very obvious what you have been doing.

    This is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. Not only did I back my point with reasons but I even provided you with a link and a nice video detailing character arcs & theme without me needing to hit you with a wall of text. All you did was just handwaved the whole thing.


    No Ozma isnt the exception he and salem are the only one this applies 

    Of course he's the exception he's the only person the God of Light broke his rule for and it was to restore that balance. Not distort it. 


    No it is your theme you took Salem's punishment and spread to everyone 

    I literally just went out of my way to explain that a Character Arc's Theme is essentially the story and you're still not getting it. It's not some isolated incident that only applies to them it's literally what the entire story is about. Not because it's always been present but because it's the source of the entire conflict. 


    and act like its always been there when it hasnt.

    I never said it was always there. It's a new theme. 


    Salem is not the protagonist she is the antagonist 

    "Everyone is the Hero of their own story"


    I was referring strictly to her Flashback. In which she is a protagonist.


    Accepting death has not been presented in 5 volumes 

    Of course not. It doesn't have to be present beforehand to become an overarching theme.


    Its when you apply it to the rest of the cast who this theme clearly does not apply to that you run into issues

    Again, it's not as hammered in because it's relatively new but that doesn't change the fact that as it stands now it's the most important theme in the story. Salem's story is the story of RWBY. The narrative literally starts and ends with her conflict. If Pyrrha was brought back in the same manner that Salem tried to do with Ozma it would contradict the foundation of the entire story.


    Such as Pyrrha coming back via Salem as an enemy for example.

    This however wouldn't be an issue. As it would likely bolster the idea of the dead remaining dead. 

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758447 - 1 month ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    There is reason to believe Pyrrha can come back, and based off of that alone you can't just assume the opposite in order to use it as support for your argument. In effect you are calling the game early when there is still a lot of time left to play. It doesn't matter how you feel, this is simply the situation that the canon has left us in. 

    And the canon has given us many reasons to suspect a return. I wouldn't be here defending it if there wasn't. Since you aren't interested in a comprehensive overview, I presume you know of the various reasons, but stop short at agreeing with the conclusion that Pyrrha returning is canonically + thematically valid.

    Ok. Fair enough. 


    It is not a primary theme, and I would even say it fails to make the grade as a major theme. As I've said, there are many characters that do not follow this 'accepting death' theme that you push. 

    It's definitively the most important theme in the story at this point. It's obviously not as hammered in because M & K made it up on the fly but Salem's backstory is essentially the backbone of the entire story. Her Character Arc is about accepting and understanding the meaning of Death. It's this that sets the entire story into motion and the resolution of her arc is the conclusion of the entire story. Salem's Arc is the story now. Once it's resolved the story is done. There is nothing "minor" about that. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758448 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Velrak

    The issue with the lie and one I actually addressed is that it really doesnt serve a purpose. See with the family unit as we currently know it Tai is a teacher, Qrow is a known spy for Ozpin, Yang is the daughter of Raven. There is no real attempt to hide this outside of Qrow being a spy but its clear he is a known element based on what Tyrian says to him.

    So then why the lie? Usually when you lie about family its to protect them. With what we know about the family that doesnt work here. Summer is also the more interesting of the parents from everything we know and its clear Summer is well know to Ruby and there is no effort to hide her lineage.


    So from all aspects there doesnt appear to be a good reason to lie about it.


    Now as for the Half sister. Usually with adoptions you dont say Half you just say sister. Often in those types of situation no indicator like Half or step is used. 

    I should know I have a half brother through my father and I have had step family when my dad remarried. 


    As for coloration there is an easy answer to that Ruby and Tai arent close. or the one I think more likely Ruby who never really knew Summer and was too young to understand her death as per Yang could have moved more towards Summer's coloration and clothing as a way to keep a part of her alive.

    Much like how Jaune added Pyrrha's armor and design to his armor and weapons. 

    Its a way to remeber her for Ruby.


    And it could be the reason why Tai is not present in Ruby is because she needs to learn a lesson from tai and after that she will add his colors. Look at Weiss she was Schnee colors through and through but now in vol 6 growing up and so forth she is adding a red scarf like her grandfather Nicholas Schnee who Qrow clearly saw as a good honest man. This indicates she is taking on his views and we see that Weiss is a lot softer and kinder of a character now then she used to be.

    So Tai may not be in Ruby's coloration because Ruby needs to learn something that will reshape how she looks at the world.


    Keep in mind Lindasy has said she is told Ruby is keeping a lot of her emotions bottled up and we have begun to see cracks in her face over this.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758450 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    No I didnt handwave it. Nice try but no.

    I explained my reasonings and so forth that isnt handwaving at all. Handwaving means I just say magic and move on THAT is handwaving.

    The problem is you keep saying this theme that is introduced this volume is the most important one despite no one backing that talking about it discussing or anything which runs counter to all those "nice" videos you provided and other things. Your own evidence works against you I even pointed that out.

    So no not pot calling the kettle black at all.


    Except by doing that he broke the balance which wasnt distorted. Humans were coming back they had no gods no magic nothing Balance wasnt broken.

    By bringing him back he broke the balance he said was so important.


    No I am getting it you are just wrong that is the problem. Your own sources show you are wrong. Its not the source of the conflict. Salem's arrogance was the source and the gods heavy handed apporach to it was the source of it. No more no less.


    Its not a theme at all is the issue. For a major theme it needs to be present through OUT the whole story. And it hasnt been. Its centered around one event the show has clearly and utterly moved on and no one is doing at all any more.

    That isnt a theme.


    Except her flashback she is clearly not the protagonist she was the villain and the show made that clear.


    Yes it does. For it to be an overeaching theme it needs to be a repeated constant source in the story. It cant crop up and then become it without a LOT of work and so far that work is not there.


    No it is not the most important theme its not a theme at all. Its brought up with Salem and then never again. No one thinks on it no one worries about it. Nothing. it was a punishment for Salem no more no less.

    No Ruby is the story of RWBY the CRWBY has flat out said that. RWBY is Ruby rose's story.

    No the story began with Ruby and will end with Ruby.

    Salem doesnt matter to the story she is just a roadblock no more no less the one that matters is the gods. The whole point is going to be dealing with the gods either showing them Humans have learned or saying no we dont want you back we want to live our own way without your sword hanging over our heads. And its going to be Ruby that deals with it.

    No Pyrrha being brought back wouldnt counterdict the foundations of the story because that isnt at all part of the foundation.


    No it wouldnt. All it would do is create drama as they deal with Pyrrha and what can they do about her. And I assure you if they bring her back and then kill her again people will be outraged. A fanfic did exactly that and yes people were FURIOUS over it. 

    So no it wouldnt bolster the idea the dead stay dead FAR FROM IT.


    You can keep saying its the most important theme despite the fact no one follows it no one hammers it no one even thinks on it but you saying that is just you saying it and clearly ignoring what the show is showing us.


    Oh and correction Miles and kerry did not make up Salem's backstory on the fly. They made that story all the way before vol 1. Miles had a dream that became the foundation for the 2 brothers he then told Monty and Kerry and they hammered it out. Salem was made 5th out of all the characters RWBY was the first 4.

    That story was not new or made up on the fly and they clearly never meant for it to be a theme.



  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33758451 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    I like this idea of a link between the people infuencing you and the colours you wear. That still does make sense for Yang, Blake and Ren. For Ruby, it would then mean she dressed the way she does only because of the emotional weight her mother represents to her. That can't be because of a lesson learned thanks to Summer. This again begs the question of how much Ruby actually does remember Summer besides the emotional package of being aware that she died. Ruby saw Summer as she was when using the SE against the Leviathan and there isn't really room to think this wasn't really Summer and just a difformed version of buried memories of a very young girl. Or using the SE puts you in a state close to hypnosis that is known to give access to unsuspected and complete memories... Hum thinking about Ruby's dreams now (passive influence of the SE).

    About the lie, don't you think that there is precisely room for some lies here to protect the family and especially Ruby ? If there is no need for that, why has she not asked Tai or Qrow about what happened to her mother ? Or why did they not tell her ? Because she doesn't seem to know (neither does Yang). Some hidden scenes with family discussions could not even justify this manifest lack of knowledge.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758453 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Velrak

    Actually for summer it does represent a lesson keep in mind Yang was the one who more or less raised her and told her about how summer was in her own words a super mom.

    Chances are good Ruby molded herself off those stories.


    As for why has she not asked questions did you ever think maybe she did and they just dont have answers? We saw with Qrow sometimes hunters go out and dont come back. It could be Tai Qrow Yang and Ruby are all under that impression it was just a mission that went bad. 

    And we dont know either.

    Keep in mind we are guessing Salem and her people did something but so far that isnt confirmed at all.

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33758454 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    I have to admit I didn't catch that ! I went for the casual "typical reply of a mother (relative) mourning her daughter (or a relative)". But the possibility it could have been Pyrrha herself is mindblowing ! The mechanisms of revival being still unknown, that could explain why she looked older (maybe resurrection does not always bring you at the age you died) and the many odd things listed by revan add to the credibility of this idea as well. I would so want that it wasn't just a stylistic thing from the CRWBY...

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33758455 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    I remember what Yang revealed to Blake concerning how she kinda raised Ruby. But that does not count as a lesson directly learned from Summer. For now, I prefer to justify the colors Ruby wears as a reminder of Summer, mainly based of what others and especially Yang have told her.

    I didn't think of that but in this case, I have to say the writers very carefully paid attention to not put Ruby or Yang or Qrow or Tai in a situation where they would confirm they have no idea. But I like this option, I never found a consistent enough explanation to Qrow's "Tai, she is not coming back..." in V4 when he was being transported after Tyrian poisoned him. I really think the "she" referred to Summer and not Raven.

    And yes, about Summer's actual fate nothing is confirmed. Salem remains the most likely option (she is chasing SE warriors) but still no confirmation.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758456 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Velrak

    If the lessons are the same ones taught to yang yeah they can count. I have seen more then a few shows play with that concept before to discount it.


    As for it also its possible Qrow and Tai DO know but dont feel Yang and Ruby are ready to know the truth just yet. Keep in mind SE are suppose to be a secret and people killing someone because of them would be covered under that. 

    So they may have with held the information for now and let Yang and Ruby think it was a normal mission or it was a normal mission but Salem caught her coming back or going towards it.

    There is a lot of writing opitions here to be honest.


    As for Salem yeah she is most likely reason but its possible Salem has nothing to do with it. Without knowing more really hard to say.

    In reply to Velrak

    To me she didnt really look older at least not old enough to have a kid. We see with all the women who have a child such as Raven and Kali for the ones who are of age and we have seen they have lines next to their eyes. This is a common trope from anime to show they are older women. If you look the RHW lacks those.

    As for the height difference Jaune is taller now. By a good margin based on the hug Blake gives him vs the height chart. Also Pyrrha they always list her height with heels on they even note that.


    I have done some drama classes that are a lot of ways to make yourself look older without really being older or using make up. Hairstyle clothes even glasses and posture can all change how you appear to be.


    Jen was also allowed to say it was a real person not a ghost and not someone possessed. They wanted that known and said pretty early which that is...odd.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33758468 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Velrak

    I could almost buy this as a backup for Ozpin akin to Isaac Asimov's second Foundation.

    Pyrrha is a member of a secret organization to back up Ozpin in times of crisis.

    Would explain why she went to Beacon and also this talk about destiny, because she would have had an Ozpin-like mission.

    Ozpin falls, she jumps into the breach at any cost.

    Would also require means of perpetuation, which could be Ozpin-like.

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758469 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Its not the source of the conflict. Salem's arrogance was the source and the gods heavy handed apporach to it was the source of it. No more no less.

    It absolutely is. It's literally the start of Salem's Fall Arc. Watch the episode again. He denies her because the balance between life & death is considered important. He curses her because she does not understand this. Hence, why he made the condition for breaking the curse her understanding and accepting death. 

    Its not a theme at all is the issue. 

    It is a theme. It's literally stated in the episode. It's what Salem's whole curse revolves around. 

    For a major theme it needs to be present through OUT the whole story. 

    I didn't say "major". I said it was the most important one. The story/conflict starts because of Salem's lack of understanding of this idea and the story ends once Salem understands it. This is indisputable. 

    Except her flashback she is clearly not the protagonist she was the villain and the show made that clear.

    Protagonist doesn't mean "Hero" and Antagonist doesn't automatically mean "Villain". 

    Being the protagonist just means she was the focus for half of it. While Ozma was the protagonist for the second half. 

    No it is not the most important theme

    Again, there is no theme more important in the story than this. Salem's Arc is the backbone of the entire narrative. Once her story ends RWBY is over. Again the story's main conflict only starts because Salem doesn't understand the significance of death and the story will only end once she understands it. Her Arc and subsequently the Theme of her Arc are the most important pieces of the story because without them there is no story. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758473 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    Yes he and the god of darkness made it the condition for breaking HER curse and it effects no one else including Ozma. No one else is held to this only Salem.

    That is why I said you want to argue this a theme for Salem and Salem alone not an issue but not an overreaching theme to every single person.

    It relates to only one person and one person alone.


    It is not a theme. It is Salem's curse. a theme is a repeated message and its not being repeated. Its said once and then never again.

    Your own Sources flat out say this. Something being brought up once and never again nor discussed ponder or pointified as Salem's curse conditions means it cant be a theme. It needs to be a repeating pattern and its not. No one else struggles with this no one else even ponders this. its not brought up again. That isnt a repeating message your own sources say it must be to be a theme.

    Also I have to point out by the gods doing that they broke the balance. If Death being undone breaks the balance unnatural life must also break the balance.


    That means the same thing. Most important theme means it MUST be a major theme. And that doesnt work based on your own sources as its not a repeating message nor is it through out the whole show. It was in one scene and then never touched on again.

    No the story wont end with Salem's understanding of it because the simple fact is she cant. she has literally seen the complete destruction of humanity it rise again, her husband come back from the dead and who wont stay dead despite her killing him with her own hands. 

    She in this situation cant recongize the balance of life and death.

    So no your argument falls flat. Its not uncommon for a story to setup a situation like this then a third choice no one knew of is taken. A good example is from Doctor who where the 10th doctor I want to say is stuck with a gun trying to decide does he shoot the master or does he shoot the returning Timelords? It works against his principles to not use a gun and not to kill. He is at war with himself till he takes a third choice and shoot the generator.

    Salem will more then likely do something along those lines.

    And its possible by this point and time despite all of the above making her understanding of Life and death unlikely she DOES understand the balance of life and death but since the gods arent there they dont see it and thus cant break her curse.


    No Protagonist doesnt mean hero you are correct in that but its clear she was the antagonist of that flashback scene. With Flashbacks you can have an Antagonist without a Protagonist being present in the events because the Protagonist is the person being shown the flashback scene such as Ruby via Jinn. 

    Hence why Salem is clearly the villain and Antagonist of the whole scene. 


    Yes there is a more important theme. Its the one that has been there since the beginning and the one that the crwby has flat out said is the Main without question theme of RWBY. To keep moving forward. You make mistakes bad things happen. Keep moving be mad all you like acknowledge them but do not let them stop you. That is the Main most important theme of RWBY.

    And CRWBY has said this.

    Salem's arc isnt the backbone of the narrative its the backbone of the conflict between Oz and Salem but their conflict is just one part of the narrative. Ruby Roses journey is the backbone of the story and again CRWBY has flat out told us this. RWBY is the story of Ruby Rose.

    There is still a story without Salem because there was a story without her for all of volume 3. Did Salem matter to the white fang? No she didnt. Did Salem matter to the apathy the farm and the train? No she didnt. Did Salem matter to Ren and his lost village? No she didnt. Did Salem matter to the Atlas commander and her base? Again no she didnt.

    Is Salem's conflict important? Yes it is but it is not the only thing in the story and its not the most important thing in the story.


    That is truly Indisputable because the CRWBY has made it clear all RWBY is without question debate or argument the story of Ruby Rose.

    Not Salem and Salem's theme which is not even a theme is not the most important


    EDIT

    And to be clear I am not the one putting the mods in. I generally dont do that when I am debating with some one

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758476 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    That is why I said you want to argue this a theme for Salem and Salem alone

    If it's a theme for Salem it's going to have to apply to the entire story simply because of the significance of her backstory. 


    a theme is a repeated message and its not being repeated. 

    Again it's the theme of her Arc. It doesn't have to be repeated to see thats the case. Especially considering(again) it was just introduced. 


    Something being brought up once and never again nor discussed ponder or pointified as Salem's curse conditions means it cant be a theme. It needs to be a repeating pattern and its not. No one else struggles with this no one else even ponders this. its not brought up again. 

    Of course not. They just learned about it. A theme can be introduced, but explored later. In One Piece, plenty of themes(Treasure, Courage & Cowardice, Family, Racism, Willpower) are introduced in the early arcs but none of them are really explored until hundreds of chapters later. Some themes that were present in the beginning aren't as important as later ones like Freedom and A Man's Dream. 

    That means the same thing. 

    No it doesn't. It's the most important because of how it impacts the narrative. Remove it and you no longer have a central conflict driving the story. 


    No Protagonist doesnt mean hero you are correct in that but its clear she was the antagonist of that flashback scene.

    No. It's just depicting how she became the antagonist. Again, it's a variation of the Negative Change Arc called a "Fall Arc". The protagonists of which usually end up becoming villains. Doesn't mean they're not still the protagonist of their story. 


    Yes there is a more important theme. Its the one that has been there since the beginning and the one that the crwby has flat out said is the Main without question theme of RWBY. 

    Main theme doesn't have to mean Most important theme. The theme they wanted to emphasize is not nearly as impactful as the one that the entire conflict is built around. 


    There is still a story without Salem because there was a story without her for all of volume 3. Did Salem matter to the white fang? No she didnt. Did Salem matter to the apathy the farm and the train? No she didnt. Did Salem matter to Ren and his lost village? No she didnt. Did Salem matter to the Atlas commander and her base? Again no she didnt.

    All secondary and side conflicts. This story exists, this journey they're on is only happening because Salem exists. Without her they don't have a reason to do any of this. I can't believe I even need to point that out. You're treating the main villain as if she were just "extra". 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758478 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    No that isnt how theme's work. Just because something is important to one character which even that is debatable doesnt mean it applies to everyone.

    Characters can have arcs all their own that do not effect others.


    No it 100% DOES need to be repeated to be part of her theme. So far it has not. That is the basic understanding of how themes work. And it was introduced pretty early in this season and then not touched on again. If it was important they would hammer it home. I have read and seen stories that introduce a theme late like this and that is how they handle it. By making sure its repeated and understood as a theme.

    So far with Salem not applied at all which is telling. Once and never touching it again makes it not a theme.


    I have read One piece all those themes are actually brought up again and again before the ultimate point of them so that argument doesnt work. Freedom and a man's dream are touched on regularly from what I recall. Zoro getting his swords broken by mihawk, the battle with the fishmen, getting his new swords, his fight with the Zombie samurai, getting trained by Mihawk are all examples I recall off the top of my head. 


    It does actually. And no remove it doesnt change ANYTHING. If the gods had just said we are punishing you for trying to trick us it would not change one IOTA of Salem's story.


    She was the Antagonist not how she became it but flat and out she was the antagonist since Ozma died. The show makes that clear. She didnt fall its clear enough when she went out to trick the gods to revive Ozma that isnt a fall that is someone being an Antagonist and ramping up their problems.

    Very different.


    Yes Main theme DOES mean most important theme. That is literally what being a Main theme is all about. That isnt even what the conflict is about. Salem was arrogant and tried to control the gods THAT is what the conflict is about. 


    No not secondary or side some of those were super important and no if Salem disapperad in vol 7 the story would still continue. Salem is just a roadblock no more no less.

    Because the issue is the GODS you know the ones waiting for humanity to call them back? They are the real issue as they are waiting in judgement for humanity.

    Also its pretty clear the real villain is going to be Cinder you know the character that has been there since vol 1? The one who shows clear signs of going against Salem's wishes who is also power hungry in the extreme.

    Cinder is going to take over and that is really easy to see.

    That is why you argument doesnt work because Salem isnt the major issue she is the major roadblock true but not the shaper of the conflict.

    Cinder with her power to steal Maidens and with a clear desire for their power plus the Relics they are meant to act as a key to its really obvious SHE is going to be the major villain.

    I will not be surprised with vol 7 and Salem taking the field Cinder uses her power to ripe away Salem's and then takes over.

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33758484 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Maria's case has reinforced the likelihood that Salem is involved in Summer's death. Still not a confirmation, we have to wait again... But Ruby heard Maria's story, I could see her connecting the dots and ask Qrow (again ?) about Summer. Wait and see again.


    About the RHW, that is debatable I guess. Nice catch for the eyes (in some shots there are not visible). The RHW still looked "just old enough" to me (as much as it makes sense) but yeah that's subjective. Also two things: 

    1) the red flowers she had were red lilies. Lilies are heavily charged with symbolism, one of them being the motherhood (derived from Greek mythology). And lilies are also generally associated with purity which suits Pyrrha. The flowers we saw would then serve a double purpose by suiting both Pyrrha's mother and Pyrrha herself. But the colour red tends to indicate passion and red lilies are indeed associated with love. But this could be seen either as Pyrrha's mother expressing her love towards her daughter or... Pyrrha towards Jaune :) (because she knew he was here hence the leaf she first controlled to reach him while he was on the bench. Ok I stop).

    2) When Jaune replied to the RHW that Pyrrha was already a huntress even without graduating, the RHW immediately shed some tears. It was obviously a relief for her to hear that. But again, it could either be her mother relieved to hear it (unclear if she knew who Jaune but I think we can assume she "knew" that he was at least from Beacon Academy) or Pyrrha relieved to hear it from Jaune, the one she confessed about her doubts after the maiden reveal.

    The more I think about it, the more likely I think it could have been Pyrrha damnit ! But still, I think it was her mother. Can't wait to have new elements about this though.

    I didn't know for Jen... That is odd to say the least I agree. We are definitely not done with Pyrrha.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758488 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Velrak

    I think someone brought up the flowers before and also said there is a meaning in one version that spider lilies I think it was is connected to revival.

    I am not that read up on flowers so you will excuse me if I dont recall it exactly right but I think someone stated that several pages ago.


    Its also odd that RHW clearly knew who Jaune is. Like she was clearly speaking to Jaune like he was someone she knew. 

    Jaune seemed to figure out hey related to Pyrrha but the way RHW talks to him its like she had a pretty good idea who he was.


    It might be her mother but kind of odd that the eye thing isnt present when they clearly are using it so far for all the mother's we have seen except Summer who died when Ruby was young.

    Add in also the glasses which helps break up her face and hide it as well.


    EDIT

    Anyone else getting some weird alerts? I have had 4 alerts for the Pyrrha thread without there being anything and takes me to an error page.

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758490 - 1 month ago

    I was trying to post my reply but this site deleted my post. I tried reposting and it just started acting up again. 

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33758493 - 1 month ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    Well why not ! Although I hardly doubt RWBY will anyhow pay tribute to the great Second Foundation, how cool would that be. But it is not so far stretched, I have to bring up again the Ruby dreams. It is almost as if Pyrrha was talking to her (or through her to Jaune). Could a mental connection be made in the WoR (under very specific conditions and for very specific people) ? It is not that unlikely I think to consider a mental aspect could be a thing in RWBY and if it is the case, it is very coherent to not have heard from it since it is so op (like we don't really hear from the Second Foundation until the story has advanced quite a bit).

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758494 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    That is probably what I am seeing then.

    Let us just say we agree to disagree with the system acting up.