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Pyrrha Nikos general discussion

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  • acw28

    acw28

    #33758573 - 1 month ago

    In reply to NickPotterfi

    Dude, it's been released on YouTube. Once RT does a public release spoiler rules need not apply. Additionally I posted that at near midnight, giving everyone nearly 12 hours before I commented.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33758575 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    Jaune is a widower of some degree. He had a very deep friendship with Pyrrha and the romantic part of their relationship also advanced since the dance episode. Jaune stopped going after Weiss and at least followed her lead,

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758576 - 1 month ago

    In reply to NickPotterfi

    It was one-sided. She's not a "place holder" or "filler" she was an important part of his life and a significant piece in his development. 

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758577 - 1 month ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    My point was he didn't manage to develop romantic feelings for her because he didn't know love or understand love at that point in time. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758578 - 1 month ago

    No Jaune DID love Pyrrha the issue is he didnt realize he did until the kiss.

    This is not a new story type not even from RT. Where someone loves someone but doesnt get that they do until something slams it into their face.

    For Jaune that was the end of vol 3.


    No one knows love or understands it until it smacks them in the face and that is me speaking as someone who has experienced it.


    For Jaune his love for Pyrrha started out as a simple friendship that with time and care deepened into love without him realizing it or noticing it. Its made very clear in the way they are handling things in vol 2. He started to get a clue with the dance but it wasnt a fully realized thing. 


    Jaune's romance was never one of those love at first sight for him it was always starts out small and grows.


    Jaune was in love with Pyrrha he just didnt realize it that is what people dont realize.

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33758579 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja Thank you.

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33758583 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    My personal understanding of the Arkos dynamic has always been that Pyrrha fell in love with Jaune in V1 right before the Emerald Forest session. Maybe not immediatly in a conscious way but she realised it very quickly after. But she made a connection with him instantly in the locker room. On the other hand, it took Jaune one and a half Volume to realize who Pyrrha was for him ; on the balcony during the dance (which is a call back to the locker room scene). The next scene we had between the two was in "Destiny" and there, the way Jaune acted has always been a proof to me that he was in love with Pyrrha, that he knew it and that he knew it for already quite some time (again since the balcony scene). When he decided to hold her hand, it was because of love. Would it have been "only" true friendship, he would have passed his arm around her shoulders or something like that. Also, the way he talked to her. No doubt in his voice, I heard someone whose heart was in the clear. When Pyrrha went for a kiss, he was caught by surprise as the situation did not really suit the moment for him (and he was right !). And then, why would he throw his phone after calling Weiss and Ruby for help ? Why would he train at night with the recording ? And why would he burst in tears when facing Cinder again ?

    Arkos was only one sided during V1 and the first half of V2 for me. After that, it was reciproqual even if it only appeared in "Destiny".

    Now, I still think Jaune currently loves Pyrrha. He just made the first step into accepting her death but his love for her is still here. And I don't expect it to ever go away. I expect him to complete his mourning as well at some point but to never fall in love with someone else again. Not that it can't be any other way but I just don't see anyone now who could replace Pyrrha (Ruby and Weiss who could be technically candidates based on previous interactions are not even in the conversation for me). Also, Jaune could choose to not fall in love again. I'm very curious to see how it will go.


    Also, a side but related note about death in anime. I read your previous posts about how death shouldn't be cheated in anime because that is how it works in real life. I'm actually from that camp. I would prefer Pyrrha not to come back and Jaune to completely accept her death. But it is pretty clear that revival in RWBY is possible and that Pyrrha is a very credible candidate for it. I still love the show though ! Just I don't consider it to be great regarding the problematic of death. A Pyrrha revival could be very emotional if done well, I love looking for hints towards it but even if it eventually happened, I know that for me it would never have the same impact as if she never comes back.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758584 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Velrak

    I think Jaune accepted her death since vol 3 that is why his armor is basically a walking memorial to her.

    The issue is Jaune is torn up and grieving about it. Which is VERY different.

    He always felt it was HIS fault she died that he wasnt strong enough to stand by her side hence why she pushed him into the locker. That is why he trains as hard as he does to prevent that from EVER being an issue again.


    As for Anime not having revival because that is how real life works. 

    That is stupid.

    Anime is not about real life none of us have a force field made from our very soul which if anime was a reflection of real life that wouldnt exist.

    Anime is not and never has been about real life. Anime is exploring what ifs and could bes to dream and imagine and see beyond what real life is.

    To think about giant monster fights, robot fights, to have magic powers, to see what the world of the dead is like, to see myth become reality so forth and so forth.

    To say something shouldnt happen because its not how real life works is to 100% without any issue miss the whole entire point of anime.

    If you look at anime its always been what if this was real what if this could happen and to never be bothered by what real life says.

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33758586 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja But it doesn't mean that he isn't hurting anymore. There is still the pain of the fact that she's not with them.

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758588 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Velrak

    In reply to revanninja

    I honestly don't think theres anything to suggest he was genuinely in love with her. Nothing one could objectively call proof anyway. 


    I never looked at the hand holding as "love". I'm re-watching the scene now and it really just looks like Jaune is trying to convey to Pyrrha how important she's been to him so that he can get her to open up about her problems.


    Why would he train at night with the recording ? And why would he burst in tears when facing Cinder again ?

    Why wouldn't he do those things? It's not like he has to be in love with Pyrrha in order for her to be important to him. 


    I do see where you're coming from for the most part but expecting him to never love anyone else ever again? Because of someone who liked him when he was a teenager? Thats a rather huge leap and is an over the top reaction. 


    I agree with revanninja that anime doesn't have to be realistic. If one were to make an argument that Pyrrha "shouldn't" come back it shouldn't be on the grounds of realism.


    "Anime is UNREALISTIC!?"


    Realism: How Much Does It Really Matter?

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758590 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    I think there is a lot but it was meant to be subtle slow falling in love so its easy to overlook.

    That trying to convey to pyrrha how important she is to him IS him showing he is in love with her as we have seen how he normally handles that which is to say not at all.

    Its really clear whatever Jaune's childhood was he isnt good at interacting with people. Him trying to reach out is him showing how important she is and how much he clearly cares about her.

    Jaune isnt aware of what his feelings are yet even though he has them.


    No he doesnt have to be in love with her to be important to him but that scene doesnt convey as just important to him. It reaches MUCH deeper then that.


    I personally dont think Jaune wont ever love anyone ever again but I also dont think they are really done with pyrrha either. Something is going on there and I think they are doing a tip toe job of balancing him dealing with it without closing the door for the final time.

    Something I have seen with other games and shows and its a very hard line to walk.

    RWBY has made it a long standing point they insert something here and then volumes later they pull on that and go hello what is this which completely flipped our understanding of things.


    Agreed if you see Pyrrha shouldnt come back due to impact and so forth I am not going to agree but I am not going to dismiss it either.

    Basing it entirely on realism in a series that has a loose connection to realism as is, hello fireball corgi anyone?, doesnt really make sense.

  • mach56gs

    mach56gs

    #33758591 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy


    Of course Salem is the main villain, but we have different understandings of what a 'main theme' should be, what it looks like, and how the main villain plays into story themes (especially in RWBY). 


    As I have argued: You improperly assume that a idea that is presented in Volume 6 is the major theme of the entire story when it could easily be contained to a single theme for a single person, much like how Blake's theme of Faunus equality is kept focused on a specific group of characters. 


    I provided you with a much more general and guaranteed concept that has been proven to be applicable to every main protagonist and has been present in the show since Volume 1 - a much better candidate for a 'major' or 'main' theme.


    And all of this thematic abstraction talk has been spent on trying to decide whether Pyrrha's ultimate fate. I have held the much more defensible position of saying that the general theme of the story is neutral and undecided on the matter, while you've been trying to argue in favor of a hardline approach that guarantees Pyrrha will never come back to life.

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33758592 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    I entirely agree about anime, their first purpose is precisely not to be realistic and to explore any fictional route. That is why I watch them ! They are great ambassadors for escapism and entertainment. But I value more any content that provide reflexions/lessons on real life (and death is obviously a major theme). Escapism and realism are not necessarily mutually exclusive. If an anime is able to mix the two, then it is a 10/10 for me. The best example I can give you is Your Lie In April.


    Completely agree for Jaune, his efforts since V4 are fueled by grief. We saw how he reacted to the sight of Weiss being on the verge of dying. I just think his love for Pyrrha helps as well motivating him becoming better.


    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    As I explained to revan, I'm not saying anime have to be realistic. I just value more the ones able to be so and the more fictional they can still remain, the better.

    Entirely agree about Jaune's actions (training at night etc...). He doesn't have to still be in love with Pyrrha to do this. Grief could be the only reason. As I also said to revan, I think love is a part of his motivation (grief being here as well obviously). This is just my interpretation.

    About Jaune not falling in love with someone else, I should have precised that I don't expect it to happen by the end of the show. If RWBY is really supposed to be 10-12 Volumes and in the same format as V6, I just don't think another love relationship has time and place to happen for Jaune. But it could be hinted at the end. The show is not done with Pyrrha, that is pretty clear. And even if we got some confirmation that Pyrrha won't ever come back, then it won't be before some time I think and the chances to see another canon love relationship for Jaune being thus even smaller.

    As for any argument for Pyrrha not coming back, I agree realism shouldn't be one. What should be is if her return does nothing to the story other than please fans.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758595 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Velrak

    The issue with reflection lessons from anime sometimes the best are not because it shows what cant happen in real life but by contrasting it and showing here it can while in our world it cant.

    Gurren is a prime example of this while what Simon does is absurd and something we will never see in real life but it highlights that holding a dream and marching towards it is possible.

    Same goes for FFT while we wont have to deal with church plots Civil war between would be regents or Demons trying to take advantage of it all the message of being true to what you believe is right is highlighted and contrasted well by that.


    Sometimes escapism works best by the fact it cant happen in real life and helps us reflect on it.

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758600 - 1 month ago

    In reply to mach56gs

    Some people actually don't think she's the main villain or even that she matters in the story apparently. 

    I understand that certain themes are character specific. That was the whole point of me pointing out that Character Arcs = Theme. Each Character Arc will address a theme/idea or moral message the character has to learn. However, The reason I postulated that Salem's Arc pertains to the entire story was not only because she's the Main Villain but because her Fall Arc is the source of the entire central conflict. 


    I can outline this point for point at a later date but as I said before I agreed to leave this topic of theme alone for the time being since we aren't getting anywhere with it. 

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758601 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Well yeah the best romances are slow and subtly built up but to objectively claim that Jaune was definitely 100% without a doubt in love with Pyrrha seems like a real reach at this point. 

    As a result I still don't see a reason to think he was in love. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758603 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    Its not a reach at all. Its pretty clear and obvious he was.

    If you look at Nora, Ren, and Ruby they are clearly friends with Pyrrha and deeply cared about her. Yet none of them are doing the same thing nor are acting like Jaune is/was.

    Its very clear Pyrrha hurt him very deeply and friendship does not cover it.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758604 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    She isnt the main villain though and that is the problem.

    The main villain is cinder. Cinder has been there since vol 1 and clearly has a lot of build up to her.

    Its not an uncommon trope for a character to take over from a more powerful villain and then go on to destroy everything. 

    Resident Evil as a quick easy example did that Wesker was just an agent in RE1 come RE2 he is a super human bent on infecting the world.

    Final Fantasy 9 did it as well Kuja was like cinder but was under the control of Garland until the end where Kuja took him out and went Mad.

    FF6 also did this were Kefka was a general in the empire but at the end of the world of Balance he unbalances the 3 goddesses kills the emperor and remakes the whole land and in the end becomes a god.


    Its a VERY VERY common trope where a starter villain looks like they are not the main villain and a later villain comes along but then the starter unseats them.

    Its pretty clear with how much attention Cinder is getting and how she is now activetly going against Salem that is the plan in regards to Cinder.

    The tropes is called the Starscream in fact

    And its very obvious they are setting up cinder to be a starscream.

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758605 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    All of that is easily explainable by reasons other than love though. She was his partner. Combine that with the fact that she's the one person to ever believe in him, That he's the leader and he feels responsible, he has low self-esteem which would attribute to his guilt, toss in the fact that she was in love with him yet dint find out until the last minute and it's no mystery as to why he's so torn up about it. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758607 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    You seem to take partner and mute all of the clear feelings not part of that. When she leaned against him when they were talking the emotion in his eyes when he was looking at her when she put him in the locker.

    No that isnt JUST Partner its really clear they are trying to show Jaune was falling in love with Pyrrha he just didnt know that.

    We see other people who are partners and NONE of them come even close to that.


    They were trying to be subtle that Jaune was in love with Pyrrha but didnt realize he was. So everything is low key on his end and that was the point.

  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.3

    #33758614 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    In reply to revanninja

    honestly Im just gonna wait to see if the show addresses. Like if Jaune asks someone can you fall in love with someone after they're gone or something. but if Id have to choose there was probably something  there with Jaune.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33758618 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Having freedom with realism applies to all fiction, not only anime. But in most cases reality is only exaggerated or bent, otherwise the audience will not even understand what the authors are trying to convey.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33758619 - 1 month ago

    In reply to EmperorLuffy

    I have the impression that you are in a minority position, when claiming that Arkos was totally one-sided. That would imply that the vast majority of the audience misunderstood the authors.

    The majority is not always right, but you should consider the possibility that "ambiguous" scenes may be intentioned for "love" instead of "friendship".

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33758620 - 1 month ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    We were speaking on anime so I was staying with in the bounds of the discussion Baked I am well aware Anime is not the only source of looking outside of reality I have discussed games, novels, and even fanfics before afterall.


    And no in many cases reality is not exaggerated or bent many times it is flat out broken. If you are ever bored look up the math on giant robots people have done and realize how many laws of physics the most common genre in anime breaks by the simple process of what a giant robot is.

    Most stories be they anime game fic or novel take a basic part of our universe and break it and then see how it breaks other things just by doing that.

  • EmperorLuffy

    EmperorLuffy

    #33758631 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Just pointing out that it's a trope that happens in some series isn't evidence that it will happen in RWBY. Salem is the one they've set out to stop. Thats the point of their journey.