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Pyrrha Nikos general discussion

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  • novusdawn

    novusdawn FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Xenos need not apply

    #33759678 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Maybe, still I feel the writing isn't all that great storyline wise. The characters have all been well written but then that good character is hamstringed by the lower quality of writing on the storyline. I mean it took 3 seasons before any real mention of Pyrrha's death was covered in any major way and even then that was overshadowed by the fact that the writers had to clarify exactly what their intention was when they killed on her character and honestly that shouldn't need to happen. A character that gives their life should have the intentions and reasoning apparent at time of death, not explained away by another character three seasons down the line. If Pyrrha's reasons for her decision to run to her death had be clear and understandable it would have made the moment between Jaune and the red haired woman much more potent instead it felt more like the writers having to explain why she did it in the first place.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33759684 - 1 week ago

    In reply to novusdawn

    And that is a fair and we'll reasoned argument.

    Rwby is not flawless and it does have issues some of which miles and Kerry are working on fixing for example they are bringing in more writers to help the show.


    I think part of the issue is they are setting up a twist but those flaws are making them stumble and causing issues.


    It's okay to see flaws in a show because all works have their flaws. Jusy make sure the flaws are really flaws and not one created from depression or other like things.


    And keep in mind sometimes flaws are there for a reason.

    From my phone

  • novusdawn

    novusdawn FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Xenos need not apply

    #33759685 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    I'm actually quite good at determining if a flaw is created by my depression or not, I've had years of practice. As for flaws being there for a reason the one flaw they are trying to correct is a horrible writing decision that they tried to ignore for three seasons and only after probably getting no end of letters and questions of why Pyrrha ran to her death seemingly for no reason did they have to address it and in doing so doubling down on why it was a poor writing choice by making another horrible writing choice.

    The flaws are there not because they are supposed to be but because this particular series is littered with them because of the poor writing.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33759687 - 1 week ago

    In reply to novusdawn

    I disagree on that considering in several areas they don't handle it that poorly ie jaune and his issues.


    I don't think they are doing a poor job at writing and that I do think is your depression talking. Too many times have they done incredible writing for me to write it off.

    When you have something that sticks out so badly like with Pyrrha and it doesn't mesh well with the other aspects it's time to step back and ask what is going on.


    In this case I think they are doing something that involves Pyrrha but they aren't there yet.


    Michael on off topic actually talked about this type of issue. It's where when watching it release to release things feel more drawn out and slow then they actually are.

    And when watching it in one goi it flows better. 


    With rwby I think that is at work

    From my phone

  • novusdawn

    novusdawn FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Xenos need not apply

    #33759689 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    well put enough monkeys in a room with typewriters and you'll sooner or later get shakespeare as the saying goes. A few good bits of writing sprinkled in between large amounts of mediocre writing a good writer does not make.


    Taking a look at their consistency is a much better way to gauge the overall quality of the writing and it heavily leans towards mediocre at best as those good bits are hard countered by the same amount of really bad bits.


    While it is true what Michael said about watching from release to release it doesn't mean that the writing will seem better when it is all over. if the mediocrity of RWBY continues to be the norm then it will be mediocre when seen as a whole.


     Also while you can speculate that they are doing something with Pyrrha due to it not meshing well it can also be said that Pyrrha's death was such a bad writing decision that trying to recover from it has made the task all the harder as they never intended to do something with it and are still not doing something with it.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33759690 - 1 week ago

    In reply to novusdawn

    The issue is you have it backwards large amounts of good writing sprinkled with medicore and that is my point.


    No it leans more towards good not medicore at all.


    No you missed the point the point is release to release stretches things out and makes what flows well when watched back to back not do that due to the long gaps between something we know has already happened with rwby as season 1 shows on jaune.


    Yes you could say that but the fact they are doing something with it and have done some odd things means it looks more likely they are up to something especially as past stuff ozpin Raven and so on shows us they can and often pull off tricky.

    From my phone


    Edit and the way I know it's not medicore is it's popularity. You don't become world famous by being medicore.

    It may not be your cup of tea but it's not medicore with that type of backing.

  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.3

    #33759692 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    well I mean...Twilight got popular...and MB's transformers...SAO's kinda meh today.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33759693 - 1 week ago

    In reply to JROY

    Point though Sao is still popular.

    But generally you don't get that popular without a good thing.

    Sao twilight and transformers hit at the right time and they don't enjoy the popularity rwby does.

    From my phone

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33759708 - 1 week ago

    In reply to NickPotterfi

    Well you and even everyone of us have plenty of reasons to believe Pyrrha can be revived. I would almost say it is only a matter of time which even if it asks for patience is the best scenario (and I'm confident the CRWBY would pull off something very good for her return).


    In reply to novusdawn

    I couldn't agree more. The reasons why Pyrrha ran to her death were far from being clear on the moment (this caused a LOT of discussions on this thread so we should be thankful I guess haha) and the Pyrrha statue scene kind of corrected it but still this wasn't Pyrrha talking. I think we are supposed to believe that what Jaune and the RHW said are the "real" reasons (she has always been a huntress so she "had a responsability to try" so she tried and she didn't regret it). But again this wasn't Pyrrha talking and this came way too late like you said. I still remember the time skip at the end of V3 when Ruby goes out of her house and JNR is here, I was like "Ok but... There is an elephant in the room here, will we have a glimpse of what happened to Jaune before they leave for Mistral like a discussion with Ren and Nora ?" And V4 went by... Nothing. That felt horrible. And I would even say that the Remembrance (V4) and Pyrrha statue (V6) scenes felt like Jaune actually never talked to Ren and Nora or anyone else since Pyrrha's death ! My issue here is not that Jaune would act so but the fact that we the audience have been left in the dark about this. A simple exchange in early V4 between Ruby and Nora would have done it for me: "(Ruby) Did you try to talk to Jaune about Pyrrha ?" "(Nora) We tried several times with Ren but he doesn't want to..."

    But at least, the CRWBY seized the opportunity to address the Pyrrha topic while being at Argus (better late than never...).

    About the writing, I personally think M&K have made a pretty damn good job since the beginning. I only have four major problems within all the show: how Pyrrha's death have been handled (both her actual death and what I discussed above about Jaune), how Yang and Blake have reunited, V5 finale and V6 finale. 

    Recent external factors (Vic fired, unpaid OT revelations, Gen:Lock taking resources) have made me quite concerned about V7 but I was glad to learn after the RWBY panel that 1) they hired two more writers, 2) V7 will air in early November this time, 3) they are flexible on the release date, 4) no character short was made this year and 5) RWBY Chibi is not coming back before some time (they didn't officially said it but if the show was about to come back, they would have said it that is my guess).

    It is no guarantee of course but that shows to me they have gotten their priorities straight. So overall, I'm quite optimistic for V7.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33759709 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    "Believe" is a rather strong expression. Then it is going on with "we can" (transfer Ambers aura to Pyrrha) and a certain someone elaborately tried to convince that this means "we did it", which is not correct. They did not already transfer aura between two living people.

    Let's rather settle for "very high chance of success" based on related facts, like a test which fell only a little bit short, like transferring aura from a living person to a robot chassis.

    The actual question is "What's that gonna do to you?", not if it will work at all, it is taken for granted that the transfer will work. They know they can pour liquid from one glass into another (empty !) one. They do not know what will happen if the target glass is already filled with liquid.

    That is my take.


    And I cannot imagine a better location for revealing capabilities of Atlas tech than in Atlas.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33759710 - 1 week ago

    In reply to Velrak

    Regarding the weaknesses of their writing

    Finale V5 and V6: My subjective opinion is that the authors simply like their protagonists too much, so they let them shine and clear the path for them. The only exception is Pyrrha who was not let off the hook by the cavalry showing up in time or sudden drop in intelligence of the opposition.

    Yang's arm was completely replaced actually an improvement, because she can use the prosthetic to parry. When Ruby naively followed Cinder the fight was interrupted. Cinder removes about half the fighting power from her team on the verge of victory. Adam's idiot party fails to notice that their bombs are disarmed while loitering in the courtyard. Grim flyers time frozen instead of attacking Argus inhabitants.

    That is not bad writing, that is standard writing.

    I recently watched an anime in which an upcoming battle was elaborately teased with tactics and then the protagonists just trampled through without even slowing down, because of awesome, overrunning a line of spearmen with cavalry and splitting a prehyped landdragon in two, because ... well ... having the right spell at the ready helps a lot.


    In my opinion the biggest weakness is the bogus (hidden?) Faunus suppression. Nothing except model details would change, if you removed the Faunus completely and replaced them by standard humans.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33759714 - 1 week ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    No that is all wrong.

    Believe means they think they can but do not have any solid facts.

    And no we cant settle for high chance of success that is you changing the meaning again as we dont know they even have that. 

    Many MANY R&D developers Believe they figured something out with a high chance of success only to completely and utterly fail. Believe just means they think they can no more no less.

    Again if they had already done an aura change at all it wouldnt be believe they would have some hard evidence they can and the machine wouldnt be untested.

    No what this will do to you is them clearly having NO IDEA how this will effect Pyrrha because there is more going on then if it works there is also failure and several other things we have discussed before.

    Please stop acting like them saying we dont know what this will do to you indicates they are saying it will work and instead them worrying about a machine they have ZERO idea what the actual effects will be.

    Keep in mind this machine is meant to work on Aura which they compare to their soul. There is a LOT that it can do to Pyrrha without the machine being a success and that is the danger they are saying without saying.

    This is a giant gamble they are making and they are trying to stress to Pyrrha without going into details just how they are only working with an idea and hoping it will work.


    That is the actual take away this is an untested machine they have no real idea what it would do to her and hoping it will actually work because their backs are to a wall with what happened to amber.


    Yet strangely most of Atlas's tech abilities have not been revealed in Atlas so far. Beacon is where we saw their robots, their power suits, Penny, their airships, and level of cyborg tech.

    You dont need to be in Atlas to see their level of tech as has already been shown in RWBY so far.

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33759718 - 1 week ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    I see your point about them liking their protagonists too much. This was especially true in V5 finale where the vilains became stupid for the sake of plot. But this wasn't just this problem ; it was simply rushed like V6 finale. Even though the reasons why I didn't like these two finales are different, their cause I think is the same (rush). And I don't blame M&K particularly for this, maybe they planned something different originally but choices/sacrifices might have been made just to respect the deadlines. I don't know what happened exactly (I never will probably) so I can't say this was "standard writing" but rather "forced writing" if it makes sense. What I know is that the writing is much different and factually better for all the rest of the Volumes where the Chapters did not suffer as much as the last ones because of deadlines or something similar. So very glad to hear they are doing everything to ensure a proper quality until the finale this time.

    For the Faunus, yes it is clear they did tell more than they showed. But I think only V5 was a problem where they were in Mistral, a place where Faunus discrimation is known to still be a thing but all we saw was the little sign outside the bar where Qrow went. Outside of that, I'm ok with how this problematic has been handled. But V7 is the perfect occasion to finally give some consistency to the Faunus discrimation. We are in Atlas, we saw the sign on Adam's face. This place is presented to be worse than Mistral so my expectations are a little higher this time. I expect Blake to have some hard times and Weiss to be there to defend her (like she did in front of Cordovan) ; also this would be a nice recall to the V1 finale and the feud they had.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33759722 - 1 week ago

    In reply to Velrak

    There is nuke in the Faunus arc. When Blake gets rid of her bow absolutely nothing happens. That is a ball drop. For me it would be mandatory to show some kind of contrast. Cabin downgrade, change of behaviour of the crew whatever. The way they show it, the message is that it was pointless from the start, because wearing it or not makes no difference.

    Another goof is the dedicated Adam character short. Armed, uniformed and masked people are stopped by a ragged militia. The armed, masked people have 3 hunters among them the ragged militia none. Total bogus threat if you are nice. Desperate militia fighting off armed invasion if you are only a little mean. I just do not get, why even in dedicated scenes the authors never show exploited Faunus in the main show, the trailer or dedicated character introductions. Is it intentional, to postpone the reveal of the real extent e.g. to V7?

    If you want high yield suppression, people with authority have to do it. Teachers, politicians, police and army have to do it and it has to be more than pulling an ear.


  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33759724 - 1 week ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    You are forgetting that boat clearly often serves the Faunus doing that would KILL their business.

    That boat has constant Faunus business as Blake was able to use it again at the end of vol 5 meaning they are not going to be that stupid at all. Speaking from experience but ships that transport people go in circuits get a reputation of doing that when you go to the Faunus Captial? and people are going to avoid your circuit losing business and the like.

    You missed a big thing Ghira was a peaceful leader not the white fang we know NOW. They werent a threat that scene? Was the turning point when White Fang started getting nasty and sad part is if you look at history you can see this happen before.

    Blake even explained this back in vol 1 that the white fang used to be peaceful but then the new leader Sienna Khan took power and violence became their motto and this short showed us how it got started and WHY it was so effective.


    The issue is you are clearly missing lore and very obvious things being laid out in the show and then acting like its a ball drop when its clear they do in fact explain it.


    There are places they are dropping the ball on the racism the examples you gave are not among those.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33759727 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    The bow removal does not have to be on the ship and a suppressive society does not care that much about lost buisiness.

    The convoy has three people who can move about as fast as Adam. For the plot they send out only one. Just passing through? Armed, uniformed and masked? Uniformed implies organized, combine that with masked and armed.

    And there is another common logic hole hidden. The "attackers" would know that there are two classes of fighters with vastly differing combat efficiency. They are on the bad end of the lower class regarding equipment and training and yet are attacking a group having three people of the higher class with them. And indeed, the group deploys only one of its high class fighters, who wins with ease. Like a group of three fully armoured knights accompanied by men-at-arms attacked by a group of peasants with pitchforks. The knights then send out one of them, but the others act scared?

    The same plothole opens with Raven's moron raider who attacks Yang. He must also know about those two classes of fighters and in his world men do not enjoy physical advantages over women. So he is just plain dumb.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33759728 - 1 week ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    You are flat out wrong about lost business as even Racist people had to deal with and do business with those they despise especially in the business that ship is clearly in.

    No you are reading too much into it. They were a peaceful organization they had defenders because of Grimm but they werent meant for humans until that point. We have been told this by Blake herself so you are wrong and the dialogue even says so.


    Your argument on fighters makes no sense its not like a video game where you can tell levels by a glance or equipment the uninformed can and WILL make such bad calls history shows us this time and time again. Even the informed can make such bad calls as Yang more then shows.

    No the only plothole is the one in your own mind. People can not tell power at a glance. Seriously that is the point they had no way of knowing how powerful Yang was just by seeing her. Shady had a number advantage and he is an experienced raider he had no way to realize how outclass he was.


    This is a major problem with your argument you assume that people can tell power levels and elite status at a glance yet clearly as RWBY shows us people can not tell. Time and time again we see people do not instant know they are outclassed or outgunned.

    So that isnt a plothole its just how the world is people can not tell Elite powerlevels and so on with just glances and instead it takes actual combat to figure this out.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33759796 - 1 week ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Rabid racist sacrifice part of their business, what else are you doing if you exclude potential customers. The Nazis who were the most rabid extermination racists ever, chose to divert a lot of ressources during wartime into their people-killing exploits. 1980s South Africa endured econonmical isolation in order to continue their separation politics. And the bar with the anti-Faunus sign was empty.


    The attack on the convoy implies Nazi-like extermination racists, they were not trying to drive the Faunus off, at the very least they wanted to steal their trucks, but there is the issue with the power balance.

    But who would man a roadblock for a long time, hurting himself economically? They obviously did not bag a lot of loot. In order to provoke such extreme behaviour they would have to be exposed to a considerable level of propaganda, and the I would like to know who orchestrated it. Another possibility would be first hand experience of Faunus violence, being on a revenge killing spree. Or some kind of wandering hatemonger. The level of organization of the attackers is totally rotten which would contradict involvement of authorities.

    The the other side, the Faunus, starting with the clothes of the underlings. Uniformed, armed and masked in a design (black white face mask) that resembles Grimm. If you show up in such an outfit anywhere, you will be arrested. They are intentionally throwing away their individuality, that is scary.


    An explanation I would accept, would be that Salem incited a conflict.

    Salem agent to Faunus: "Them humans hate you, wear this and arm yourself to scare them off"

    Salem agent to Humans: "Them Faunus are invading, look at their ghastly garb and they are armed to the teeth, defend your homes with your lives"

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33759797 - 1 week ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    Riiight the issue is their business already handles Faunus as is so they WOULDNT be Rabid racists due to how their circuit works.

    So canon already blows a hole in your argument like always.


    They were responding to the convey there was no road block the town didnt want them and wanted to drive them out by force and hunt them down so issue with your argument again.

    Its called a MOB Baked they arent organized it was clear this was a spur of a moment thing for those people.

    They were part of an organization and were already being discriminated against they just wanted to make it clear WHO they were. So that way people got the message hey they are attacking us not joe schome of nowhere but the face of faunus that is part of the big issue with White fang after all they are considered by MANY to be the face of faunus and when they turned to violence well history shows us that issue.


    What you would accept is also not what happened at all and an immense amount of complex for no good reason. It links everything to Salem instead of pointing out Salem is preying on issues people really do have. These are problems forming with  no help from Salem who then later sees the problems and makes use of them for her plan. 

    It makes Salem goes away on problems go away simple when that isnt what RWBY is going for at all.

    They want us to get that Salem is a massive issue but if she disappeared right this second the issues wouldnt go away.

    Salem is using the symptoms to her aid but the core problems are separate from her and needed to be addresses separate from her.

  • NickPotterfi

    NickPotterfi

    #33759957 - 2 days ago

    I am really hoping that Pyrrha comes back somewhere in the next saga.

  • user-572df514355fe

    user-572df514355fe

    #33759962 - 2 days ago

    In reply to NickPotterfi i can see either she was never dead but kidnapped, or a revival via relic or salem.

    The revel that someone is kidnapping people with powerful semblances in after the fall which gives some hints if you look closely between the lines. Or if she's really dead they either revive her via salem for a psychological weapon to use against the kingdoms and ruby and co, or the relic of creation to prevent it's power from being used by salem for a certain period of time same with the relic of knowledge.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33759965 - 2 days ago

    In reply to user-572df514355fe

    I got to be honest the whole Salem is kidnapping people with powerful semblances is a MIGHTY interesting fact and its something that is RWBY trademark sneaking in something that changes a lot of our understanding.


    We havent seen it yet but we have seen what might be the results of that. We have seen with Cinder and Hazel very unique Semblances that are not the normal type of thing but can be very destructive when used right. We have seen Cinder continue this with Emerald whose Semblance is also extremely unique.

    If Tok, the one who blinded maria, was also part of Salem's group that is another example as her semblance gave her a serious edge in combat.


    And we know Cinder placed Pyrrha on a list after she figured out Pyrrha's semblance. Now a lot of people dismissed the list as not important or only in regards to the plan. But we know RWBY has this habit of placing things in that become important at a later date the advantage of having a large part of your story planned BEFORE you show the first episode which we know they have done despite people trying to say otherwise.


    Then there is the fact over 6 volumes no one has "died" like Pyrrha has. Not a one. And that is very odd. Death happens and we see it a lot but none do anything like what we saw with Pyrrha. Cinder hasnt done anything close to that since. 


    So yes the reveal about Salem collecting people with Semblances might be a LOT more important then anyone realizes.

  • user-572df514355fe

    user-572df514355fe

    #33759966 - 2 days ago

    In reply to revanninja her own personal army? a way to transfer semblances to her grimm? infusing the kidnapped with essence from the pool of destruction to make more like herself?

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33759970 - 2 days ago

    In reply to user-572df514355fe

    Who knows we barely have any info.


    One thing I think we can say is most likely going on is experiments. Salem seems to know a LOT more about Aura and Souls then Ozpin does as the whole splitting the maiden power was not something they knew you could do. And from what we have seen Salem didnt know more then Oz before this.


    So the only answer is she has been doing experiments but not held back by pesky things like morals for example. 


    So I wouldnt be surprised if some of those kidnapped people are being tested unto destruction just to find out what happens.


    My guess is if Salem is developing an army her going to attack Atlas with her flying monkeys and then getting smashed is going to force her to pull them out. possibly showing that she cant use unthinking brutes for battle plans that dont involve Zerg rushing it.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33759980 - 2 days ago

    (1) The Mistral hunter complement vanished, no corpses found.

    (2) Roman stole large amounts of dust, but no shortage was mentioned, so this may not have been the goal.

    (3) A machine exists, originating from Atlas with the purpose of transferring aura to "something".

    (4) Salem signed up a scientist kicked out from Atlas.

    (5) Salem is low on headcount in her team and has severe loyalty problems therein.

    (6) To counter Ruby's SE Salem would need forces who can take cover and/or wear opaque protection.


    I believe we will get much more information on (3) and (4) in V7, the capabilities of the aura transfer machine and the projects Watts worked on.