Forums > RWBY

Pyrrha Nikos general discussion

Posts (40411)

  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.3

    #33759987 - 1 month ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    I bet what got him kicked out had to do with something he wanted to do with the relic of creation, and Ironwood found out an kicked him out. 


    It would also give Salem reason to bring him aboard hes not just some disgruntled scientist he has knowledge related to tge relics.

  • acw28

    acw28

    #33760016 - 1 month ago

    In reply to JROY

    See that's the thing, why would Ironwood know about the relic? From Volume 2-3 we can infer that Ironwood is the newest member of Oz's circle. We know that Oz keeps secrets even from his most trusted people, so I've got a feeling Oz told James about Sal but not the Relics. Then we have Qrow's letter saying somethings needed to be explained in person. I have a feeling Watts got kicked out of Atlas because of something relating to Penny, but then why wouldn't he have told Salem (and by extension Cinder) about the android?


    Also I can't help but feel we might get something Pyrrha related shortly. I just got an email advertising new merch for her (limited edition sketchbook t-shirt), which is nothing new, but the subject line was "Bring Jaune and Pyrrha back together." Why must the produce new mech, and constantly remind us of, a dead character?

  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.3

    #33760020 - 1 month ago

    In reply to acw28

    Because each headmaster are trusted with protecting the relic hidden in their acadamy, so of course Ironwood would know. 


    However given what we know about him its not out of the question to try an use it in the fight against Salem, such as creating Penny. 

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33760022 - 1 month ago

    In reply to JROY

    Agreed and that would assume Ironwood has the Winter maiden and that he asked her to open the Atlas vault without checking with Oz.


    Also, I have always wondered if there is any meaning or link between the relics and the Academies where they are located. Or between the relics and their respective maidens.

    I would have gone with:

    Spring / Creation / Mistral

    Summer / Knowledge / Vacuo

    Fall / Choice / Vale (only one identical to the show)

    Winter / Destruction / Atlas

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33760023 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Velrak

    Sorry, I have to nitpick

    Without any doubt

    Spring / Knowledge / Mistral

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33760024 - 1 month ago

    In reply to acw28

    It would be a really bad security arrangement to position the matching maidens in vicinity of the vaults. That would be putting the key under the doormat.

    Furthermore the relics are not very good material for experiments because most likely they are exhausted really fast, not taking into account that you would not necessarily start with a full load in the beginning.

    Salem faction knows about Penny's secret.

    We know only two significant Atlas projects: Penny and the aura transfer machine, and they may even be related. It is possible that Watts was kicked out of Atlas for shoveling a load of Grimm goo into the target chamber of the aura transfer machine, which would be the natural thing for a curious scientist not bound by moral constraints.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33760026 - 1 month ago

    People its very likely that Watts has NOTHING to do with the Aura machine.

    Ironwood didnt start scientifically looking at Aura until recently based on his own words and considering how new and untested Aura machine was it was probably created in DIRECT response to the Fall Maiden being attacked and her power stolen something Ironwood flat out says they didnt know was even possible before that.


    So it seems VERY likely that the attack showed them Aura could be transfered which they didnt know about before.


    Watts clearly has been with Salem for awhile the way he acts around cinder its her that is the newest memeber and we know she was one before the Fall maiden was attacked.

    So chances are good Watts left Atlas long before Aura was being investigated.

    Watts is also a cybernetic doctor since he made Tyrian's new tail. No suggestion Aura is in his field of experience.


    In reply to acw28

    Wait the tag line was Bring Jaune and Pyrrha back together?

    That is very strange.


  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33760027 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Ironwood didnt start scientifically looking at Aura until recently based on his own words


    Like in "For the past few years ..."

    So two at the very least, perception ot time is relative though.

    And if they are Nazi-like not nice to Faunus then you can bet that it is fully tested. Which would also be a reason for Watts to be fired, when not all are Nazi-like not nice to Faunus.

    And you totally ignore that the machine was stated as transferring to "something". Unless you assume that maidens are on average regarded as "things" the machine was not created in response to the maiden crisis.


    No problem, most likely this part will at least partially be solved in V7.

    I officially project two connections Aura-machine to Penny and Aura-machine to Watts.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33760028 - 1 month ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    Its really not though as you are making a lot of leaps that are not supported at all.

    They make it clear there was no testing they had zero clue how it would work or what it would do to Pyrrha.

    Your attempts to say it was tested are not at all supported by the show and what is said.


    Its very clear the aura machine is new and so it being linked to Watts makes no sense at all.


    And no I dont ignore anything that is what you are doing as in the VERY conversation they make it clear they have no idea what this will do to Pyrrha none. 

    And no they make it clear it WAS created in response to the Maiden as they before that didnt know you could do that with Aura. Which its clear the principles of the Machine and what Cinder did are one and the same or working on the same concept.

    This your argument actually makes zero sense based on what Ironwood flat out says on the matter.


    And your projections are off on all accounts just based on what we know already.

  • acw28

    acw28

    #33760030 - 1 month ago

    In reply to JROY

    And that feeds into  my headcanoon about Ironwood. Before the festival, he's one of six people that Oz has told a bit about Salem and the Relics. It was more or less hinted that he brought his army with him against Oz's orders, but James did it anyway because he thought it was best.


    And that's just the first event an an unsettling pattern. Oz didn't know about Penny being an andriod, and Ironwood clearly had no intention of sharing that information had she not been destroyed. And then we see Ironwood using his position to force an embargo because he thought it best.


    If Ironwood had somehow unlocked the vault and was attempting to use the Relic, it's once more going against Oz's wishes as the academies were created to guard the Relics. It makes it seem that Ironwood is going to become an antagonist, not one that's alined with Salem but believes they can't do wrong because only they can save the world (read Atlas). If that is the case I hope James doesn't find out how special Ruby's eyes are. Just imagine what experiments he would do to artificially replicate the effect for "the greater good".

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33760031 - 1 month ago

    In reply to acw28

    Agreed in vol 4 I think it was he even laments why didnt Ozpin listen to him.

    Despite a lot of the issues are from his actions or in response to them.

    His army for example keyed up the people and had to make people twitchy as we later learned Vale won the war while Mantle lost it and suddenly they show up on Vale's frontdoor with an army?

    Stuff like that.


    Then there was the way he handled Qrow which I have said before is 100% NOT how you handle a suspected traitor because if they are not a traitor you could have killed them by cutting them off like that.

    Then him cutting out Ozpin like he did that was 100% Ironwood forcing the issue.


    I think Ironwood does have his heart in the right place but he is either coming down WAY too heavy handed or he assumes he knows what is best.


    I am very interested to see just how much for the "greater good" Ironwood has done.

  • acw28

    acw28

    #33760033 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    You're line about Ironwood having his heart in the right place reminded me that his primary inspiration was the Tin Woodsman, one of Dorothy's three companions. There's other Oz inspired characters, but what was special about the Scarecrow, the Woodsman, and the Lion (and spoiler for a literal decades old movie) was that they were each missing something vital. While there's debate about if Qrow is an analogue for the Scarecrow, among other inspirations, one that can't be denied is that Leo Lionheart directly corresponds with the Cowardly Lion.


    So why is that important? Well in Oz the Lion lacked courage, in RWBY Leo has the same characterization. He was a trusted member of Oz's circle, in such a position to know about Oz's reincarnation, of who knows how long, Oz installing him as an academy headmaster to try and lessen Human-Faunus tensions. Yet at some point after learning the truth about Salem he lost his nerve and became a coward.


    So what does this mean for Ironwood? Well metaphorically, an literally given his cybernetic replacements, he doesn't have a heart. He doesn't recognize the emotions at play whenever he makes a grand gesture. I remember when I was younger that I was told some people are either too emotional or too logical when they make a choice. At hearing of the possibility that the Vytal Festival would be in danger, Ironwood does the logical thing and brings a large show of force in an attempt to scare the attackers away, but he didn't consider the emotional side of people questioning why the army is needed. This pattern is repeated with the Dust embargo. Yes it makes logical sense to deprive a possible future enemy of ammunition, but he doesn't consider such a move will further alienate the other nations, especially as it's been illustrated that Dust has a much more widespread use aside from ammunition.


    This all just circles around to my original point, Ironwood is too self-righteous to see his mistakes. He's one of the few that stands against Salem, the ultimate evil, so logically he must be a hero. A hero's actions are always just, so logically he can't do wrong even when the likes of Jacques tell him he's going too far. So when Qrow shows up with a Relic, Oz's reincarnation (with the all knowing one now ignoring everyone), and something that can literally freeze/disintegrate the Grimm, logically he needs to take advantage of this. 

  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.3

    #33760034 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Watts Probably had nothing to do with the aura machine but I bet he had ideas involving the relic that even Ironwood thought was too far.

  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.3

    #33760035 - 1 month ago

    In reply to acw28

    Wait was it official merch? Got a link?

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33760037 - 1 month ago

    In reply to acw28

    Interesting concept especially if ironwood is under PTSD you don't have that much of your body replaced without some. And shutting down emotions and not thinking clearly are signs.


    In reply to JROY

    Watts may not have known about the relic then ironwood is a new member of ozpin group. But other things going too far yeah I can see that


    From my phone

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33760049 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    In reply to BakedBrain
    They make it clear there was no testing they had zero clue how it would work or what it would do to Pyrrha.

    The basic functionality of the machine is not described in "conditional" terms, there is simply no sign of insecurity about the chances of success regarding target "something".

    Only target "Pyrrha" raises doubts, very specific ones, about the effects on her (to you). Note the total absence of doubts about achieving the primary objective, keeping the half-maiden powers. This lines up nicely with the fact that they are convinced that using the machine is preferable over keeping Amber in stasis, implying a higher estimated probability of success, even before they start to get pressed. They cannot afford a high probability of Amber being killed in the process, they can also not afford a high probability of the powers separating from Amber and Pyrrha. In these cases the result would be a mission fail. They would not do it, waiting and improving the machine would be the natural choice then. But again, the obstacle are the unknown effects on Pyrrha and her consent not the machine not working.

    Why would you state the designed capability of the machine as being "transferring aura to something" in contrast to you ("someone"), if this was not the original design objective?

    The maiden powers splitting is never mentioned when describing the machine, it's all about aura and much more people have that. The original design target of the machine "something" in conjunction with the split maiden powers being the reason for development would imply Penny as the original target. Then they would have tried it on Penny or an empty chassis, but failed. Which contradicts the matter of fact description for target "something" which does not allow any notion of failure.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33760050 - 1 month ago

    In reply to JROY

    Just visit the shop, it's the second item on the first page if you have no filter.

    And it is way to artsy to tempt me in the slightest.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33760051 - 1 month ago

    In reply to acw28

    In reply to revanninja
    A hero's actions are always just, so logically he can't do wrong even when the likes of Jacques tell him he's going too far.

    That is not true, usually authors will shield heroes from the consequences of bad decisions. So if certain protagonists enjoy a little infight and trigger a monster invasion, they are endowed with enough remaining strength and lucky timing so that nothing bad happens. And protagonist teams who "let nobody behind" are almost never massacred in the process.

    But if an author feels the urge to deliver a little tragedy, all he has to do is to withold this shield and even/especially the best intentions yield catastrophic results.

    If Pyrrha had known that she was a character in fiction she would have been absolutely in the right to attack Cinder, because her combined chances of getting out victorious or being saved by the cavalry/teammates/fate were excellent.

    Heros can err, be tricked and then do wrong.

    Unfortunately the leader of the protagonist faction has a problem with cooperation and that would spread to his underlings.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33760065 - 1 month ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    Baked he was being sarcastic and making it clear Ironwood sees his actions as justified because he is doing what he sees as the right thing so this what you are trying to say is not at all an actual statement following what ACW was actually talking about.

    In reply to BakedBrain

    No there is doubts. Ironwood says he BELIEVES funny how you ignore that. If he had tested it he would say he knows this works instead he uses words that lack conviction and instead make it clear this is an untested machine.

    Ironwood: For the past few years, Atlas has been studying Aura from a more scientific standpoint; how it works, what's it made of, how it can be used. We've made... significant strides. And we believe we've found a way to capture it.


    No they were convinced to use it because Amber was not a long term solution. You cant keep someone on live support indefiently it doesnt work too many issues. And with the stolen powers being also an issue.

    Ironwood: For now. We're using state of the art Atlas technology to keep her stable. But there is a lot about this situation that is... unprecedented.


    Funny again how the laid out facts disprove your argument.


    They didnt have TIME Baked Ozpin makes this clear he needs an answer shortly you are reading a firm sucess rate when in reality this was a giant gamble and every word phrase and so forth makes it very obvious that it was a gamble.


    Ozpin:  You have an important decision before you, Miss Nikos. There's no guarantee this transfer will work. And there's no telling if you will be the same person if it does. I advise you to take time on this matter. But understand that before the Vytal Festival is over, we will need your answer.


    They really had no choice this was an unique situation as per their own words they didnt know what would happen if Amber died would the power join back up or would it remain split and they would now have 5 maidens out there?




    You are reading a lot of things that just arent there and ignoring how the whole thing is laid out to make it clear this is not a proven tested thing its a giant untested gamble but their back are to the wall.


    No there is plenty of unsaid mention of Failure you are just choosing to ignore it and change it into something its not. When someone says they BELIEVE also Ozpin aka Ozma who knows more about magic and Aura then anyone besides Salem flat out says there is no gunarantee this will work.


    So unless Ironwood is not saying something which is possible but NOT present in the line of dialogue as it currently stands and no the classified he says is not evidence the dialogue flat out disagrees with your argument.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33760075 - 1 month ago

    In reply to revanninja

    "We can't transfer Amber's powers to you, but we can give you, what those powers are bound too."

    No "try", no conditionals, no doubt - estimated probability of success in excess of 95%  

    "her aura" 

    no objections

    "Her life would become intertwined with yours. The question is ..." "... what's that gonna do to you?"

    The "if" to the would I would put at "If you conceded and we did it".

    The arbitrary alternatives are not even brought up, which would be "bounce", nothing happens with Pyrrha, "replace", Amber fully pushes Pyrrha out of her own body, "brain/soul roast", if the machine goes just plain haywire.

    So you would either have to go with manipulation, the group intentionally skips some undesirable alternatives and exaggerates general probability of success or you have to accept that they believe they have a pretty solid grasp of what will happen primary objective success rate above 90%.

    The projected outcome is scary enough, a backseat driver in your own body, with a high probability of equal access to control.


    Do not know, if the Beacon machine will be explored in V7, but I am confident that we will get the origins of Pennybot (AI or transferred soul). We will have to wait less than a year to get the version of the authors. 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33760077 - 1 month ago

    In reply to BakedBrain

    No there is no estimated probability that is NEVER stated and thus you are changing the words because you are ignoring the believe and the directly stated there is no guarantee this will work. If the chance for success was so high they wouldnt use those words.


    What they are doing is not STATING a fact is instead explaining the process as they see fit.

    I see this a LOT when scientist explain their ideas even when its not for sure they speak like this.

    Its pretty clear you are not following the basic simple laid out language which is they BELIEVE this might work but they are not sure and have NO GUARANTEE


    Explaining the issue as they see it is not giving it a 95% chance of success that is you giving meaning that is 100% without doubt not there.


    They NEVER give a chance of success so you need to stop trying to make it like they did that is you projecting meaning and with the fact Ironwood when explaining it says they BELIEVE they discovered a way to capture it and Ozpin then saying there is no guarantee this will even work they more then make it clear that this machine is hugely untested and there is a good chance it wont do what they think.

    They arent going into details because they want Pyrrha to do the transfer which if they explain the chance of success or what could go wrong which is as I have explained before MANY MANY times more then what you think it is and has so many variables thinking its that simple of possibilities is asinine. They know this would make Pyrrha less likely to do it. So they are keeping it simple on purpose. 


    So no the chance of success is not and never has been 95% its they have no idea what the chances are at all. They have no idea and they lay that out in the dialogue you are ignoring and trying to move around to make a false unstated and completely contradictory argument on.

    The argument you are making is one that doesnt work at all.


    I suggest you stop that as its clear you are just arguing this for the sake of it despite the dialogue and everything showing that no your argument was dead before you even showed up on this forum.


    I dont know why you are so sure its going to be explored in vol 7 there is based solely on the past volumes a more then good chance they will tease us with it but wont go into any details about it at all.

  • Ace-of-Rogues

    Ace-of-Rogues FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Main Weapon: Rapier Wit

    #33760085 - 1 month ago

    They made it very clear the machine was new and untested. If they had any specific successes, or even non-failures- for lack of a better phrase- to cite, they definitely would have brought them up when they were talking with Pyrrha since those would support their position by proving that the machine has worked before. Likewise, if the machine had repeatedly been tested and failed then it would have been pointless to consider since they would have had no reason to believe it would work.


    Personally I think the machine itself was a red herring. Think about it; the machine never actually did anything in V3, it just sat there until the Fall and even then Cinder preempted Ozpin's attempt to use it. So why provide the lengthy dialogue about it in the first place? One possibility is that everything relating to it was a straight red herring that was just supposed to make Cinder's capturing of the power more jarring, but I have a different theory. I think they introduced it as a way to subtly introduce the concept of Aura transfer, which as I've said before leads to some interesting and worrying theories when you combine it with what Penny's existence proves, that things besides living bodies can have an Aura under the right conditions. Combine those two concepts, add to it what After the Fall reveals (that Salem is interested in acquiring people with powerful Semblances), and consider that she's preparing to launch an open assault on what has been presented as the most advanced and militant kingdom. She's going to want a serious edge, like say a way to enhance her Grimm... 

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33760090 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    It might not have been a red herring but rather set-up for something later we have seen them do this such as with Ozpin and Salem the setup for the Gods and so forth.

    They mention something that doesnt become important until later.


    We currently dont know what Salem wants with these people and more importantly as we know for a fact she knows things Atlas doesnt know. They didnt know you can split the Maiden power for example. 


    We also know from Cinder that Aura cant protect grimm. Cinder has a grimm arm and has Aura which shields her just fine but not her arm. 

    So I dont think enhancing Grimm is possible as we know it but a reverse might actually be in play.


    Insert a grimm into a Human with a powerful Semblance and have it control them. That way the Aura can protect it while also have the person being a giant shield for the grimm.

  • Dinobot01

    Dinobot01 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33760091 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    Makes me wonder how Salem will react if she learns there is someone whose Semblance is the ability to amplify other Semblances.

  • user-572df514355fe

    user-572df514355fe

    #33760093 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Dinobot01 I wouldn't be surprised if she send's an agent to acquire said person by any means necessary.