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RWBY VOLUME 6 IN DEPTH DISCUSSION THREAD| That's all she wrote.

Posts (6773)

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33726575 - 11 months ago

    In reply to tin-foilhat

    Ok, here's the thing about non-LBGT people writing LBGT characters: it's going to happen.  I can easily understand the thought of wanting non-LBGT people to better understand the people that they are writing as characters, and I can DEFINITELY understand that the LBGT community doesn't want to be seen as stereotyped, or have the LBGT status used as a codifier for being an antagonist.  Remember, I saw the whole Ilia backlash coming months before it happened, but I understood that the narrative NEVER tied Ilia's sexuality to her status as an antagonist.  It was her ties to the White Fang first and foremost that made her an antagonist.  Not only that, Blake never had to appeal to Ilia's sexuality to get her to switch sides, so good on the writers there.  But at the same time, the fight for equality's end goal is to be treated as EQUALS, yes?  That's going to mean non-LBGT authors writing LBGT characters with as much effort and understanding as they put in to everything else.  And it's going to mean that some LBGT characters are depicted as not as ideal as the community would like.  Again, all the backlash over Ilia was that she was an antagonist, so it was assumed that her sexuality was being used as a codifier for that (and again, it wasn't true).  And it means that the LBGT community, rather than calling non-LBGT people and LBGT allies "outsiders" (which most certainly carries the implied argument that, as people who aren't LBGT, they shouldn't try to write LBGT characters, you may not be personally saying that, but 1) it DOES come off as such when this kind of language is used, and 2) there ARE a LOT of LBGT people who DO think this), both author and community need to come together for the author to better understand what they are going to be putting into the book.

    As a coldly logical individual, I also see it from all perspectives....but at the same time, I can also see where there needs to be improvement on ALL sides.

    One of the biggest flaws about how the LBGT community seems to want to be represented is that what they DON'T want to see is LGBT characters being antagonists AT ALL.  Again, I understand why, as I know full well of things like the Hays Code for comic books back in the 60s and 70s (as well as what writers had to do to subvert it), but asking for only non-evil representation carries another implicit argument: that ONLY straight people can be evil.  This is as much a stereotyping and codifier as what is being fought against.

    In the end, I will repeat myself: the ideal is that an LBGT character is being written with as much effort as the rest of the book, the author, should they not be LBGT, should make an effort to reach out to the community for assistance on a subject that you ARE correct on (that as non-LBGT, they won't have as much first-hand understanding as an LBGT person would)...and the LBGT community should be willing to help the author learn.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33726578 - 11 months ago

    In reply to EliseProudmoore

    The real issue always lied with the fandom, and their zealous want of the LBGT representation to be Yang and Blake, and it most definitely carried an implicit connotation of "or else".  Check out the "queerbaiting" topic for how that broke down.

  • MichaelHalpe

    MichaelHalpe FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33726579 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    My feelings exactly, and being gay was never Ilia's defining trait, it just happened to be a trait, which is how I personally think it should be handled, orientation shouldn't be a defining trait of any character, if you know it great, could add some depth but it doesn't really change who they are, and that's how they handled it with Ilia.

  • EliseProudmoore

    EliseProudmoore

    #33726580 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight


    Well said. Speaking as a member of the community, whatever my lame little voice is worth, I’ve never taken issue with non-LGBT writers writing characters that fall within the group.


    Matter of fact, I think it’s rather nice when they want to go out of there way to include one. 



    And if I may offer up one other point, I believe part of the backlash was that, apparently they scrapped a character being gay because he was kind of an asshole and they didn’t think it would go over well.


    And then a couple months later they reveal Ilia.


    Which is rather odd to be fair. Scrap one for his attitude or whatever then keep the one whos openly fighting for the bad guys. 

  • MichaelHalpe

    MichaelHalpe FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33726581 - 11 months ago

    In reply to EliseProudmoore

    In reply to WrightKnight


    Well said. Speaking as a member of the community, whatever my lame little voice is worth, I’ve never taken issue with non-LGBT writers writing characters that fall within the group.


    Matter of fact, I think it’s rather nice when they want to go out of there way to include one. 




    And if I may offer up one other point, I believe part of the backlash was that, apparently they scrapped a character being gay because he was kind of an asshole and they didn’t think it would go over well.


    And then a couple months later they reveal Ilia.


    Which is rather odd to be fair. Scrap one for his attitude or whatever then keep the one whos openly fighting for the bad guys. 


    I think it was more because he was kinda an asshole AND immediately killed off

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33726582 - 11 months ago

    In reply to MichaelHalpe

    In reply to EliseProudmoore

    Michael has it right it was more because he was killed off and there is a trope called killing off your gays and its not well recieved usually.

    Basically Pilot Boi came across as woke points then an actual character.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33726583 - 11 months ago

    In reply to EliseProudmoore

    Pilot Boi being gay was scrapped as he was on a tier FAR lower than Ilia is (in terms of driving a character narrative, if I'm going to be effectively rejoining the discussions, you'll be hearing about things from that perspective), so we don't really need to flesh him out all that much, which means him being gay takes up more of his character....and it DOES fall right into what I was talking about.  One of the other things that the LBGT community has a massive problem with (and on this, they have far more solid reason to be wary), is that LBGT characters tend to be killed.  Now, what happened to Pilot Boi, again?  Basically, you have the double-whammy of Pilot Boi being 1) an asshole, and 2) dead as a doornail within one, two episodes of him showing up.

    Just to let you know, I AM a very coldly logical person, and one of the things that I do is tell people the uncomfortable truth.  You know, like I just did a few posts ago.  You might take it well, especially since I AM a "cishet" white dude, but a LOT of people don't want to hear it.  Just letting you know what I'm about if we have a conversation.

  • EliseProudmoore

    EliseProudmoore

    #33726584 - 11 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    In reply to MichaelHalpe


    I actually wasn’t aware of that part of it. Huh. Well, that makes a bit more sense now


    But still, the Ilia reveal and how they did it...I mean, they probably knew it wasn’t going to go over great. Or at the very least I feel like they should have

  • EliseProudmoore

    EliseProudmoore

    #33726585 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight


    I appreciate the heads up, and no worries. I’ve gotten enough crap in my personal life  that someone being harsh online tends to not phase me much short of them using homophobic slurs, so it’s all good.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33726586 - 11 months ago

    In reply to EliseProudmoore

    They cannot control the raving fanbase, who, at that point, wanted very specific representation.  They likely had an idea of what was going to happen, but again, what were they going to do, just NOT write any LGBT characters?  

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33726587 - 11 months ago

    In reply to EliseProudmoore

    They did know its WHY they were making it clear they were going to introduce the LGBT at their own time. I think they just were aware of the issue but they way they had the character they couldnt get it across better since its such a tricky subject.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33726588 - 11 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    They were really in a Kobayashi Maru.

    1) write no LBGT characters, get blasted for not representing
    2) write Ilia, get blasted for having an LBGT person be an antagonist (which is EXACTLY what happened)
    3) give the howlers what they want, and have Blake and Yang hook up, be RIGHTFULLY called out for allowing the fans to dictate what they write.

    NO-WIN SCENARIO

  • EliseProudmoore

    EliseProudmoore

    #33726589 - 11 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Tricky is putting it politely. Im not looking forward to how they have to handle things going forward having ANOTHER person who has a thing for Blake around.


    In reply to WrightKnight


    I agree, very much a rock and a hard place type of situation. Now see, this is where I sound like a BIT of a hypocrite, given that I like Blake/Yang myself.


    Let me be clear I would never ‘demand’ a thing of the writers. I simply like that pair because..well, I just do? Idk how else to put it.



  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33726590 - 11 months ago

    In reply to EliseProudmoore

    My overarching reason for it is quite simple: in today's modern over-emotional society, SOMEONE has to be the green-blooded, logical Vulcan.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33726592 - 11 months ago

    In reply to EliseProudmoore

    I can also just as easily see it not happening.  Remember, the whole point of the partner system was to make solid bonds between people that, quite frankly, NEED that level of cohesion in the midst of battle.  In addition, I have, in the past, seen works of fiction where two members of the same gender have that kind of bond, but AREN'T 1) romantically involved with each other, and 2) aren't sexually interested in members of the same gender.  Look up the anime "You're Under Arrest", and its two mains, Natsumi and Miyuki, for such a bond.  The trope is called "Heterosexual Life Partners", which flies right in the face of the modern perspective that a bond that deep MUST be romantic.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33726591 - 11 months ago

    In reply to EliseProudmoore

    Yeah and they NEED to deal with BB if they are going to go that route or put it down and firmly establish what the relationship is.

    In reply to WrightKnight

    Yep 100% they just had to grit their teeth on that one and there is more then a few that look like that is an issue.

  • MichaelHalpe

    MichaelHalpe FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33726593 - 11 months ago

    Yeah let's be honest though, given the choice between killing the first confirmed gay character or revealing Ilia (which was strongly hinted at in the Blake character short) the same episode in which they very strongly hint at Yang's interest in Blake, (in an albiet heartbreaking way) and letting the Fandom rage about it for a couple episodes they made the right choice

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33726594 - 11 months ago

    In reply to revanninja

    Boy, can you imagine if Jaune was a girl (or Pyrrha a guy), with nothing else changing from canon?  Imagine how Pyrrha's death would have gone over THEN....

  • MichaelHalpe

    MichaelHalpe FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33726595 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    In reply to revanninja

    They were really in a Kobayashi Maru.

    1) write no LBGT characters, get blasted for not representing
    2) write Ilia, get blasted for having an LBGT person be an antagonist (which is EXACTLY what happened)
    3) give the howlers what they want, and have Blake and Yang hook up, be RIGHTFULLY called out for allowing the fans to dictate what they write.

    NO-WIN SCENARIO

    Personally i think they handled it well, the rage was only for two episodes and tempered a little by Yang's part of the episode

  • EliseProudmoore

    EliseProudmoore

    #33726596 - 11 months ago

    In reply to revanninja


    This volume i think is where that needs to finally be dealt with. Thats just my opinion, but i think it’d be best.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33726598 - 11 months ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    There would be almost ZERO Jaune hate to be honest in either version. And yet flipping their lid would happen.

    In reply to MichaelHalpe

    I disagree on the Yang hints to be frank but yeah its just they kind of need to do their thing and the fans just need to respond.

  • revanninja

    revanninja FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold One who is judged by the

    #33726599 - 11 months ago

    In reply to EliseProudmoore

     I think you are right because I think with Yang and Blake reconnecting and Yang showing how much Blake hurt her is the perfect time to nail down what is the truth and is not since feelings are naturally being explored.

  • MichaelHalpe

    MichaelHalpe FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33726600 - 11 months ago

    In reply to EliseProudmoore


    If you are talking about Ilia being around, she needs to find herself and come to terms with what she has done, i don't think she will allow herself to be in a relationship until she does so, but she still cares about Blake but she might not be looking at her that way anymore, doesn't mean she won't notice someone whom would be however

  • EliseProudmoore

    EliseProudmoore

    #33726601 - 11 months ago

    In reply to revanninja


    Just um...if it turns out that theres nothing romantic there or its one-sided like with Ilia? Don’t mind me if Im not around, i’ll be hiding in my fallout-style vault.


    Because i think its safe to say the fandom will go absolutely, stark-raving, bloody ballistic. 

  • MichaelHalpe

    MichaelHalpe FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33726602 - 11 months ago

    In reply to EliseProudmoore

    I don't think it will be like that there are some hints with Blake but far more subtle