Elfquest would like a word with you about four-fingered elves.....
RWBY VOLUME 6 IN DEPTH DISCUSSION THREAD| The Lady in the shoe
#33734737 - 5 months ago
It is going to be interesting to see how they handle the Adam problem. I mean the Blake trailer showed him as amazingly skilled but still believable, then Volume 3 comes and it's up to debate as to whether he'd just grown incredibly strong or if Blake was just making some stupid choices during their confrontation. And then Volume 5 just comes in and teetertotters everything. The opening has Adam successfully launching a coup against someone many assumed to be a strong fighter (the new short may contradict me, but I don't think Sienna was the White Fang's leader for nothing), but then in the end he gets bitched slapped repeatedly by Blake, who he'd easily defeated before.
So then how do you solve the problem of a character's skill level rapidly shifting? I mean we did have the line from Blake about not pursing Adam because he wanted to get them alone, so does that imply he's better at dueling than in a group brawl (which would make some sense since two out of three wins where mostly solo endeavors)? Or maybe we get a scene where Salem or Tyrion or another henchmen are beating him up for his failure and he asks for another chance, saying his early success made him overconfident and that he can be better, leading to a training regiment like Cinder's that pushes his skill level up even more, or at least establishes a reasonable baseline.
revanninja One who is judged by the
#33734745 - 5 months ago
I have seen her in the short via a small amount of the clip. She is a good fighter I would place her near Blake's level there about.
The reason WHY he got slapped by Blake was because he wasnt taking Blake seriously. He was underestimating her because she was SCARED of him. He thought it was the same and he paid for his arrogance something Sienna even called him on.
His skill didnt rapidly shift it was actually the situation. Sometimes the situation makes powerful warriors VERY weak.
As an example if you take a fighter who uses a spear and place him on a ground with poor footing like pebbles or sand he is not going to do well as the spear weight and counter balancing it means his footing needs to be secure which pebbles and sand is not.
So situations can make a fighter appear MUCH weaker then they are because they play to their weakness.
Its actually a common tactic to shore up your weakness and apply your strength.
Adam from what I have seen, which mind I havent seen the full short, is all about short bursts of violence. he doesnt seem well set up for drawn out battles or ones at range his skills and weapons appear all about getting himself into range for his sword. Which Large Melee is NOT a good choice for as there are too many variables.
Also his weapons do historically poor against shields and staffs like the people were using.
So Adam underestimated Blake and was in a fight he would most likely do poor even if he can kill LOTS of people plus add in the police and it was not a fight to stick around and do at all.
#33734799 - 5 months ago
They're gonna be suspected more after what happened to Lionheart, though I daresay Ozpin will cover up that Lionheart sold out the Mistral Huntsmen in order to prevent further violence against the Faunus. All people will probably learn is that Lionheart was found dead in his office, his murderer unknown. Anyone who knows differently is leaving, or has already left, Mistral, so the truth will go with them.
#33734827 - 5 months ago
Crazy theory but maybe he turns into the new Manticore?
Negative thinking on my part but from the looks of things, what might have been interesting (because that DOES sound interesting, exploring the political turmoil for Faunus in Mistral where hate crimes seem awfully high, and what it meant to have Leo turn humanity over to Salem yet how does his own race factor into the equation?) I don’t think so. It seems they want to scrap the Mistral arc completely and start fresh by leaving its dead weight behind.
revanninja One who is judged by the
#33734950 - 5 months ago
As far as we know she cant turn people into grimm.
She can graft grimm parts onto people but that isnt making them a grimm.
Cinder was still cinder she just had a grimm arm attached to her and acting like her arm.
But grafting and turning are 2 different things.
Now she MIGHT be able to turn someone into a grimm via grafting enough parts on or something else but if true we havent seen it just yet.
#33735027 - 5 months ago
Agreed the idea is probably crazy, but it is rather interesting. Historically, manticores were a lot like chimeras in that it was a monster comprised of parts of other animals, in this case the body of a lion and the tail of a scorpion, and the face of a man depending on the source. From quickly looking at the concept art, it seems RT is pulling a lot on that, a winged horned lion with a scorpion tail.
Now for how this could be possible (although incredibly unlikely). As you mentioned, Salem has been shown to "gift" people Grimm body parts, as shown with Cinder and her arm. But there are consequences, as while Cinder gained new abilities (stretchy arm like a nuckelavee and Aura draining), she also gained a few weaknesses (Silver Eyes and no Aura in her limb). You are right that Cinder was still Cinder, but what would happen if multiple Grimm parts were grafted onto a person? This is just wild speculation on my part, but what if the person lost a bit of their soul with each grafting, until they were just another monster, a bit a bit more powerful one?
Just typing this has made me realize something. Most Grimm are based on a singular animal (Beowolves to wolves, Ursa to bears, Goliath to elephants, etc.), even the more mythological based ones are easily recognizable as animal (the Grimm Dragon is obviously a dragon, the Geist's true form is a classic ghost), but with this announcement there's only really been two "mash-up" Grimm, the Manticore and the Nuckelavee. The Nuckelavee also had a rather interesting habit of collecting trophies of the villages it destroyed, seriously what use does a Grimm have for torn up flags? If the idea of Salem "turning" people into Grimm is true, then maybe Lionheart isn't the first but the latest. As for why she would do it, well Salem did just loose a huge advantage with the death of Cinder while it seems that the heroes keep gaining power. If she were in need of another piece on her side of the board, why wouldn't see use the resources she has available? As for how she could accomplish this, she still has the Seer Grimm in the school, who's abilities the audience still doesn't fully know.
Again, this is just wild speculation on my part (which is fun to do while we wait for the new season), but also think about this from a writing standpoint. When was the last time we were introduced to a new Grimm before it was animated? The Nuckelavee was the de facto villain of Volume 4 for RNJR (in that it was the enemy the main character's fought the most and had the greatest impact on the present story), yet we didn't get a good look at it until towards the end of the Volume, and only got to see it's concept art after it's defeat. Again, this is a guess, but it seems like the Manticore is being set up for something similar, to be the Volume's main villain to be defeated, but RT usually has a surprise for it's audience, so then why give out the big spoiler before the Volume even starts? As for Salem never showing this ability before, well the series has done sudden reveals with "blink and you'll miss it" hints before, to varying success (Silver Eyed Warriors and Salem's first appearance occurred in the same episode, but were meet much differently by the fandom). Not to mention if this does end up being true then it's setting a precedent for a method in which other dead characters could return if they were needed for the plot.
Again, highly likely not to be the case, but some evidence makes it fun to speculate.
#33735038 - 5 months ago
Perhaps, though I daresay as long as Qrow and Ozpin are in charge, that such cover-ups will be the rule rather than the exception. Think about it, revealing the truth to the Mistral Council will mean revealing the existence of Salem, which will undoubtedly cause an uproar throughout the whole kingdom and lead to more Grimm being drawn to it. And with most of their veteran Huntsmen dead, they'll be hard-pressed to defend Mistral from the latest threat.
No, I still believe Ozpin will cover things up and take the truth with him to Atlas, and strongly encourage his students to do the same, lest another panic erupts within the kingdom.
Wow, it's tomorrow? Sweet, so I can watch it before the weekend, excellent. ^_^
#33735045 - 5 months ago
I think the writers are a little lost at this point. It explains the change in choreography and character combat skills (partially, and partially due to the software changes and death of Monty), the unusual pacing, the odd character dialogue, and all sorts of other oddities about the show that have started in late Volume 3, and gained prominence from Volume 4 onward. One word: Dramatization.
1st point: If you look back at the original color trailers and the first couple of volumes, the characters really played to their strengths. Choreography was good, and the back-and-forth changes were more frequent in the fight scenes. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the original choreography was highly organic, even if not the smoothest on the level of individual movements. The fight had some overall flow to it, like water in a ravine- turbulent on a small scale, smooth on a large scale. Nowadays, it's become more mechanical. The smoothness has changed from large scale to small scale, and the exchanges ("1" attacks ->"2" parries, "2" counter-attacks ->"1" dodges, etc.) have a lower frequency ("1" attacks ->"1" attacks again ->"1" attacks yet again, "2" finally responds ->"2" attacks ->"2" attacks again, etc.). It's less 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, and more 1... 2... 1... 2...
Likewise, characters played a little more to their strengths. Blake relied on dodging and/or parrying, then counter-attacking. Yang relied on strength, but remembered not to forget upper-body defense; Ruby relied on mobility and her weaponry; Weiss focused on using glyphs and precision strikes. Each one used certain techniques as either a crutch or a main asset to rely upon. Circumvent those tactics or habits, and you can probably win. Nowadays, it seems more drama-driven. Blake wins her fight with Adam with a "BitchSlapTality" because it makes everything more dramatic, a packaged and processed win for the heroes, and that's the problem. Moments like that with a clearly-determined outcome aren't entirely new to the show, but it's become even more processed and common unfortunately. People have noticed a similar thing about RvB, especially with the last season that came out.
2nd point: the unusual pacing really doesn't need much introduction, but it also seems drama-driven. The pacing is rushed when something dramatic needs to happen for each episode to get its fill of hectic craziness (Weiss getting impaled, Weiss' plane going down, Raven emerging as the Spring Maiden, etc.), and slow when interjecting an emotional moment, like the reunion of RWBY in the finale.
3rd point: I've noticed that the line delivery from the VAs has changed. Much like the fight scenes, I've noticed that the recorded dialogue went from somewhat organic to eerily mechanical. I know for sure they can do voice acting better than I can (trust me, I've tried), but I think the dialogue should be done in a way that everyone hears each other's dialogue. Context is everything, and doing a line without context makes it harder to get the inflection right, which is apparent from the first two lines of dialogue between Cinder and Raven as they entered the Vault. The script's not horrible, but there's points where the delivery falls short.
I'm guessing some points aren't going to be conveyed clearly just by text alone. I can probably better express this argument in a video, so feel free to let me know if that would help.
revanninja One who is judged by the
#33735050 - 5 months ago
I dont think that is true at all.
Your 1st point is literally because they changed the software and monty's passing. Its something they are aiming to fix.
Your pacing argument makes no sense as that was going on back in vol 1. That is how they have been doing it since the start.
3rd point is wrong as VA delivery is actually getting MORE praised then what it was originally. I have seen nothing but people saying its on point with va acting. So that is just your personal view on it.
So no I dont agree at all and no a video wont help I see what you are saying and just think you are reaching pretty bad here.
There is areas they need to work on but its not the ones you are bringing up here.
#33735082 - 5 months ago
About the 1st point, it's possible to make adjustments for it. I can see why they'd struggle, considering organic choreography takes longer, and that organic choreography was Monty's specialty. However, I don't think the software change and death of Monty is enough to completely rationalize the alterations.
Additionally, I remember we had a little quip about how "floaty" the animations were back in Volume 4, and you said they were working on fixing it. Then Volume 5 ended, and they still had the same basic kinematic issues I detailed before, with all those echelon-shaped jumps and whatnot. The 2 new character trailers we saw with Ruby and Weiss were damn good, so I know for sure they can animate fights and do choreography quite nicely. But, that technical skill is only, if I were to estimate, half on display in the show itself. Not trying to call the animators a bunch of slackers, just saying there's room for improvement in that way.
In Volume 1, the pace was more consistent, albeit slow. Yes, things went too slowly at times and too quickly at others. The story jumped from 3 episodes covering 1 hour to 1 episode covering a week. But, look back. Did important story moments feel rushed? What I find annoying about the show now is that things feel rushed, versus the first few volumes where they didn't cram tons of plot into every episode-- they spent time making the show to crack jokes, and while interjecting plot-heavy episodes, set the show up as something that generally toggles between action and comedy. Now, the show's taking up a new direction, where it relies on the story very strongly, whereas it used to be prided a little bit more for its fight scenes and corny jokes, and in the process of this transition, it seems as though each episode is stamped out to have a bit of wild drama, some kind of plot twist. Problem is, that creates a pacing issue in and of itself- how long until you run out of plot twists? I've seen some shows and heard of other shows that have the same dilemma. Eventually, the whole "drama every 5 minutes" cycle (I'm exaggerating about the 5 minutes part) gets stale.
And I think that might be one root of the issues I've noticed. The show started off as a slow series, one that was fun, goofy and light-hearted. Now it's being written very seriously, and the writers are trying to cover leaps and bounds of story rapidly. I'm known for being ambitious to the point of near-instant failure, but this is excessively ambitious in my opinion. They have to write lots of story details per volume now, meaning more time spent doing story revisions, brainstorming, script-writing, and less time dedicated to the smaller bits and pieces.
The main characters originally acted casual, and interacted sorta like characters in a Naughty Dogs Studio video game-- they'd sit around and have a bit of chit-chat. Compare that to RWBY now, where almost all dialogue has to be done with more enthusaism and isolated mostly to story elements. Yes, I know the world damn near came to an end, but even then, there's not enough time for the show to slow down and catch its breath.
On that last point, the individual line delivery was pretty good, I'll give you that. My main complaint (in case it didn't come across as such) is that the chemistry was not quite the show's strongest asset. Nora and Ren did quite well, as did Oscar and Oz, but it seemed like the contextual tones didn't line up too neatly, or sounded very drama-driven. Perhaps "eerily mechanical" was a poor choice of words; the dialogue sounds inflated, amplified in a way.
Considering you're probably gonna just go ahead and call me 100% dead wrong, what would your critiques be? I'm genuinely interested, and more than willing to listen.
revanninja One who is judged by the
#33735084 - 5 months ago
Yes you are wrong.
The floaty bits you are talking about? They DID fix.
And they also showed an improved bit. The thing you are forgetting is the trailer is ONE small set piece that is worked on and finished vs MANY set pieces worked on and then on to the NEXT with the looming Cinder vs Raven fight consuming stuff.
Which that for vol 5 was a MAJOR issue. Also Miles has flat out said they worked too hard on the trailers and it cost them on the show which is WHY we dont have more then one this time.
Did the important story moments feel rushed...YES. Seriously that was how they WORKED.
You are just seeing things in that light is the big issue. YOU see it as stale and there is the problem.
The show was NEVER meant to be a slow story that is where you are wrong. ALL of this was meant by Monty to be covered in 7 volumes from his own mouth when speaking on it. They COULDNT do that and so things changed. What you are noticing and THINKING is the pacing is them changing their time slot which went from 5 to 7 minutes to closer to 25. That changes things and they are STILL adjusting as things are spaced and planned for the original RvB time slot and that is no longer the case.
What you are running into is the issue of translation and this is one of the ares that is my Critque because they need to step back and think about how long their show is and SET a solid time limit on it. Its been a growing time slot for 4 volumes now and it shows.
Uhm they DID slow down and catch its breath that was the whole dinner scene which people treated like it was a SIN for doing that.
So nope they are you guys are just ignoring it.
I am going to just disagree on the VA point because that doesnt even make sense if the single line sounds fine then its working as intended.
What you are thinking is an issue is something with ALL VA works. As they dont usually work together so they cant play off closer to an actual conversation between people. They are having the lines read to them or in some cases not even that and given an emotion to work with said line which they record.
That is NORMAL of all VA work by the way so they dont line up because they ARENT taking cues from each other due to the nature of recording.
It can also be they record a 100 times but the sound guy is the one that picks the final version and he thinks that one works the best out of the match ups.
You with the VA are literal complaining about the process that currently CANT be changed due to how much work goes into recording schedule and so forth.
And this is going to be my last post on this Immathinking I dont want to make this into ANOTHER giant argument of back and forth with walls of texts. I am very tired of doing this to myself and other posters.
So I am not going to.
I disagree with you and your views on your whole piece.
#33735087 - 5 months ago
Yes, I'm aware Monty wanted things to go faster with the show, you've brought up the 7 volume detail before. As an engineering student who's talked with machinists, technicians and other engineers, I can assure you, sometimes you end up with something slightly different than what you intended. Volume 1 was a bit rough, and Volumes 2 and 3 were very enjoyable, even if they didn't keep up with Monty's intended pace. Now, the show's running full steam ahead and, as you said, they haven't set a solid time line and they're scrambling to formulate a story. They focused too many resources on one thing, and not enough on another. Fully agreed. That's what I was trying to get at, but it appears we're in an argument in this regard over the creator's intent versus the reception by the audience.
Flat out, here's my suggestion: Set the timeline, break it up into smaller pieces than they've been making (rushing doesn't seem to be working for RT), flesh out the story, do the dialogue, animate, polish and present.
I don't get why the dinner scene was treated like blasphemy, and at the same time, is it weird that there's pretty much only memorable scene where things calmed down enough for characters to be more casual in the entire volume? I find that to be concerning. Create a story too quickly, and the production schedule suffers; too slowly, and the audience leaves. It's a production balancing act. I think they're within the margin of error, but can still afford a slight slow-down.
And your critique about how voice acting works is valid in that it's common for one actor to be in a studio doing lines by themselves without others to get context from. However, while it works well enough, there are certain scenes where the actors should be able to piggy-back off of each other, like Tucker and Sister in the current RvB season. They had both actors sit down together in the studio to record their dialogue together, and both actors commented on how it helped a lot. The resulting dialogue sounded amazing. They don't have to use that method, as the current method works well enough (minor aesthetic critique, I guess).
I've tried voice acting, and I realize how tough it is to get a line right when all you've got is a script and a cue, like a note. Doing lines with someone else there to listen to ties you into the role better. It's context, plain and simple.
revanninja One who is judged by the
#33735089 - 5 months ago
The va thing is because of what it takes to doing recording.
You are also not acknowledging its not possible for a LOT of the VAs.
Weiss for example is not in state, Vic does it from his own private studio. Time and schedule are a thing especially because some of the VAs are actually attached to more then one project and cant align their timeslots.
It also takes special equipment to do more then ONE person. Its not easy and there is a LOT of problems with it such as someone making an accidently sound which with one person can be edited out but with 2 it may not be able to because you have 2 mics picking up things.
So no your "suggestion" isnt doable at all plain and simple.
I am only answering this part because of how easy it is for people NOT to realize the COUNTLESS issues.
The rest just no I disagree with you and your view on this.
#33735091 - 5 months ago
The whole dual microphone recording thing doesn't require as much special equipment as you might think. With 2 microphones on the cardioid setting in a soundproofed room, each microphone won't pick up accidental sounds from the other actor unless they're speaking very loudly or yelling.
Other than that, you're definitely right. Timing and coordinating co-op recording sessions is enough of a nightmare that the whole theoretical microphone setup is irrelevant.
We agree on the conclusion that things feel rushed lately because THEY WERE. No insinuation, no subtext, just a face value statement: ROOSTER TEETH WAS RUSHED IN MAKING VOLUME 5. You said it, I said it, if you call bullshit on this, I'm busting out the quotes on you. This single phrase is 100% objective and backed up by your own previous statement.
Here's where we branch off and disagree: you're sticking with the objective fact that Monty meant for the show to be faster than it was under his watch, and you rightly called me out on my statement that the show wasn't meant for such a fast pace. That was my first mistake on this *very* specific subject of pacing, and there's plenty of other mistakes I've made that I'm blatantly missing, I admit it. Next, based on your statement that we completely disagree on views, it indicates that we're approaching this from different angles. Seeing as I'm terrible at this whole reverse psychology thing and never seem to understand what you're getting at, I'm not going to insinuate anything.
You've indicated that you disagree with my view that the show should slow down. I think it should slow down because it appears as though the studio is red-lining, so to speak. They can make the show, no doubt about that, and do it at a much higher quality than some of the other content out there, for sure, but they haven't solidified the timeline, like you said, and it shows, like you said. Again, I'll quote this directly from your previous replies if I have to. The concern is that things feel rushed because they are rushed. Solution? Stop rushing. Set a sustainable pace. First 3 volumes were slower than expected, and the last 2 have been hit hard by tight schedules to get a lot done with less resources (namely, 2 of their best animators, Shane and Monty). Even if it means not meeting the 7 Volume goal Monty set, perhaps change can be welcome? This is where I'm spit-balling solutions.
Let's step back and look for a second at how things turned out. Basic analytics: what was the outcome, what was the process, what flaws can you take not of along the way? Step 1: Which volumes were more enjoyable to watch? Which ones weren't? Broadly speaking, anyone in this thread can feel free to chime in, because Rev and I can keep this up until the cows come home and walk away with nothing but a headache.
revanninja One who is judged by the
#33735092 - 5 months ago
Immathinkin please stop I dont agree with you at all both on the Mic which I know for a FACT its not that easy and the rest of your post I dont agree with and I KNOW for a fact you are misunderstanding what I am saying.
Its not the first time either.
And you can also drop trying to threaten me with quotes it wont work.
I am not looking for a fight tonight. I just disagreed with your view and said as much with no intent to make this into a long post war and have SAID as much.