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Oscar doesn't have a choice! (Discussion about Ozpin and Oscar)

Posts (11)

  • Agent-Z46


    #33717175 - 11 months ago

    This my first time creating a discussion here but this something I REALLY wanted to discuss and see people's thoughts on.

    Ozpin's actions that certain people disapprove of is often justified (either by Ozpin or other characters defending him) by saying that they had a choice. Ozpin seems to use people for his cause like pieces on a chessboard. Trying to turn Pyrrha into a Maiden, turning Qrow and Raven into birds, and sacrificing Hazel's sister. All are justified by saying they had a choice. Even Ozpin himself says "Everyone has a choice" But I don't think that's true. Not everyone has a choice. Obviously I'm talking about Oscar. When Oscar first discovers that he's sharing his body with Ozpin, he had no say in the matter. Not even in leaving his home and life behind. Ozpin doesn't suggest or ask Oscar to leave. He used the words "We have to leave" he told him to leave and he kept pushing until Oscar finally gave in. At some point in volume 5, Ozpin tells everyone if they want to leave, they may do so. In my opinion that offer doesn't exactly apply to Oscar. And then finally in the battle with Hazel, Ozpin forcibly took control of Oscar's body when he wouldn't give it up. You can argue that Ozpin saved Oscar, that he would've died otherwise, but even so Ozpin forcibly took control. He took away Oscar's right to choose. Not only is it a huge red flag, it throws Ozpin's "everyone has a choice" argument out the window! Ozpin seems fully ready to use people for his cause. Just like Salem. We just haven't seen him cast them aside yet.

    I really hope that this is brought up in the show at some point, because I really think it should be mentioned. Anyway, please share your thoughts! Whether you agree or disagree, I'm excited to see what people think. :)

  • TheGuyFromTheInternet


    #33717179 - 11 months ago

    Other than being a boy dragged into the madness of the plot, we don't really know much about Oscar other than the basics. To me, his character is lacking depth and same can be said for Ozpin but since Ozpin seems to be the mysterious character from the get go, I guess it's alright.

    It would be interesting to see Oscar fighting back with Ozpin in terms of moral choices. Ozpin seen blood and "allegedly" sacrifice many for the "greater good". This would be good for character development for both of them. Point being, Ozpin can unknowingly play as the villain. Yes, he has good intentions but it honestly won't surprise me if he sacrifices Ruby in a heartbeat **cough cough** Rose Garden **cough cough** and it would make sense that he sacrificed Summer for the same reason... "allegedly" sacrifice Summer... but I doubt the last part is cannon.

    Long story, short. Ozpin would make a great antagonist.

  • traveller49


    #33717876 - 11 months ago

    It is getting clear that Ozpin uses people. He has lived for ages and it is certain that Oscar is not the first human he has possessed. I have to ask, "Is it vital for Ozpin to live for humanity to survive?"

  • TheGuyFromTheInternet


    #33717878 - 11 months ago

    In reply to traveller49

    I doubt Ozpin is necessary to humanity's survival. Ruby is the MC after all.

  • notvai4


    #33717945 - 11 months ago

    I've always been super opposed to this line of thought, to be honest. Ozpin doesn't really show any signs of ill-intent, and none of the comments against him really have any strong basis. They all come off as "Well if you squint really hard, look backwards through a mirror, and turn the volume to zero, he looks kinda evil, guys!".

    Saying he doesn't give Oscar a choice is maybe the closest I can see to a somewhat barely legitimate argument...except for the fact that Ozpin himself does not have a choice either. He doesn't choose to who to merge with (not possess, not overwrite, but merge), and he doesn't even get to choose not to come back at all. It's not his power he wields, it's a curse he has no control over. He really does not have the option not to take control of Oscar in the Hazel fight, nor to just pal around with Oscar at his house forever. He's the only one that mostly knows what to do, and the entire world needs him. On top of that, Oscar is not actually forced into being there either. Ozpin can't take direct control of him for long without wearing himself out, as we've seen. Oscar is just one more person that's there because it's the right thing to do. So while he may not have chosen to have Ozpin merge with him, 

    It's funny how people seem to forget that for every thing that's gone wrong, Ozpin has felt remorse. He claims full responsibility for failing to stop the fall of Beacon, he chooses to stay behind and hold off Cinder for as long as he can, he gives everyone the choice to refuse and leave whenever they want. The only thing people (in-universe) get pissed at him for without him showing any particular remorse for is the Crow and Raven thing, but so far we have no evidence that the ability is any kind of detriment to them, Crow straight up says that they chose to have it happen, and Raven is very clearly painted as being wrong in just about every decision she's made so far.

    I know this is just my views on the subject, but it just really annoys me to see people looking for stuff like that where it really isn't. It's like people want Ozpin to be evil or have some dark secrets or be amoral and selfish for kicks instead of the tortured and tired man that's still trying to do what's right after thousands of years that we're presented with.

  • TheGuyFromTheInternet


    #33718222 - 11 months ago

    In reply to notvai4

    I get where you're coming from which makes Ozpin being a villain all too more tragic. He is a person only doing what is right, suffered through possibly eons of war against salem and this is what he gets.

    Think about it though, Ozpin may be forced to have sacrificed some morality. He may have spared a life of an enemy once and as a result, many more people die because of that decision.

    What I am arguing is that Ozpin can be set up as a villain here having gone through centuries that could've warped his morality. True that he feels remorse for what he did but if he lived for this long, he likely approach the situation in a more logical standing rather than emotional.

    About Oscar having no choice, it is true, neither does Ozpin but it does raise the moral dilemma. If it means saving everyone from evil, would you sacrifice an individual's free will? It's like the Trolly Problem in ethics. Either decision have consequences and he has to live with it and has been doing so for god knows how long. No one would fault him if he went a little psycho in the head after all those years. I mean you're stuck with a curse. How is he not crazy yet?

  • RedStrikeBunny

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    #33718385 - 11 months ago

    Kind of want to see Oscar do the same and take control away from Ozpin

  • tin-foilhat

    tin-foilhat FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33718404 - 11 months ago

    In reply to KamenRiderOz-Gear

    Their relationship is the serpent eating its tail. The Ozhead sheds bodies/lives as a serpent does its skin. During a RWBY binge my friend stated: "He's both Dumbledore AND Voldemort." Ozpin says they have to work together but when it comes down to it he'll consume the boy whole if he has too. 

    Ozpin: No, you didn't. And neither did I, at first. But you do have an opportunity.

    Oscar: For what?

    Ozpin: Greatness, hopefully. Greatness in knowing that, when the world needed help, you were the one to reach out your hand. It won't come without hardship, without sacrifice, but I know you don't want to live the rest of your life working as a farmhand in Mistral.

    Oscar: (hands on his head again, eyes wide) So you just decided to read my thoughts?

    Ozpin: I…well. They're our thoughts, no

  • tin-foilhat

    tin-foilhat FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33718946 - 11 months ago

    In reply to traveller49

    Sometimes I wish I could ask Miles and Kerry directly about Ozpin and Oscar: WTF was the creative process? I love the boy, but sometimes I get this feeling that Oscar's introduction as a regular kid pulled into this wasn't the original plan. Like JNR's guesses when they first met Oscar? I know sometimes writers will throw little things out there about "behind the scene" details, but if something like that had ever been genuinely considered...

  • Velrak


    #33720162 - 10 months ago

    Ozpin's morality is very questionable but does morality matter when survival is at stake ?

    I strongly believe that it doesn't, as Leonard Church from Rvb famously stated : "When face with extinction, every other alternative is preferable".

    I don't question the actions Ozpin took. I question how he took them especially when it comes to other people being involved.

    Here are two examples to prove my point :

    - Ozpin and Pyrrha : Ozpin had to try something to solve the "Amber problem". They had to make Amber's power as much difficult to reach as possible for Cinder. So transfering it into someone in full condition to fight (to move at least) was worth a shot. Problem is, this aura/power transfer was (and still is so far as we know) not a well known and established process. We will never know if it would have worked because Cinder interrupted it. But could you face yourself in a mirror after taking no actions when you knew that theoretically there was a chance, even small, to win the fight ? I think that after all these years of reincarnation, Ozpin has reached to the conclusion that anything that may raise your survival chances has to be considered.

    So Ozpin was right to try something in my opinion.

    But I question how he exposed the whole situation to Pyrrha. Yes he was honest about the unknown consequences the aura transfer could have on her but the way he explained the whole thing to Pyrrha does not really leave her with a choice at the end even if he claims there is still one... which is true ! But there is choice and choice. It is like being "offered" a job opportunity that you theoritecally can refuse but at the same time, it is your only opportunity to go on in life. It is like Ozpin saying "Miss Nikos, I would understand if you refuse but if you do, it is a certain death for everyone".

    Opzin makes you feel guilty of not choosing his path. And he knew Pyrrha would never refuse because it is Pyrrha ("I just believe I found the right candidate"). He knew her sense of duty would help things go his way.

    - Ozpin and Oscar : I agree with what has been said in the previous messages. Ozpin does not really leave a choice for Oscar, wether it comes to leave the farm or against Hazel. But once again, I don't blame Ozpin for taking over against Hazel because Oscar had obviously much less chances to survive than Ozpin. I just don't appreciate how he is not honest enough with Oscar on that matter. Ozpin has to make it clear to Oscar that he will take over any time it is necessary (Ozpin has an overall better judgement of any situation).

    About the farm leaving, Ozpin was clearly not diplomatic enough. Of course he is right about the fact that they need to leave but he is not patient enough and not willing to help Oscar first accomodate with this new host inside his head. He just speaks so as Oscar can only reach the conclusion that leaving is indeed the right choice and that he really made this choice himself.

    Once again, Ozpin makes you feel guilty of not choosing his path.

    Couple of other related thoughts :

    - Ozpin and Summer : we don't have any information but I still put it here because I think it was a similar situation than with Pyrrha but with Silver-eyes this time. I think Ozpin put Summer in a situation where she could only die (against Salem probably) even if she was convinced of making the right choice. But I could be wrong, maybe Summer's death had nothing to do with Ozpin.

    - Ozpin and the Branwen twins : we also lack informations here but it is an interesting example because right now and from the beginning of the show, Qrow has always been on Opzin's side whereas Raven hasn't. 

    Why did Raven stop spying for Ozpin ? I think it is linked to why she left team STRQ and Yang and Tai in particular. From the conversation she had with Yang and Weiss in V5/Chap6, we can tell she doesn't trust Ozpin and I want to know why. Did she left only because of fear ? Or did she realize that Ozpin was not honest enough and using them as pawns ? Or both ? She never gave real informations about Ozpin so as to justify her departure.

    On the other side, Qrow. In V5/Chap7, he replied to Yang that "we made a choice" (he and Raven about being able to transform in birds). In V4/Chap8, he replied to Jaune than Pyrrha "was given a choice and she chose" (about receiving Amber's power). Qrow really seems to share Ozpin's view of things and I would like someone to really question him about how Ozpin really processed with Pyrrha or Raven and himself.

    - Ozpin and Ironwood : James Ironwood is the only character that really confronted Ozpin. For now, Ozpin has always been able to convince him he was fair to anyone and that his actions were justified. But Ironwood is not the same now ; he is following his dictator arc (see how he controls Atlas now) and I very much wait to see how Ozpin will react when faced again with Ironwood because he will certainly not listen to him and probably weaken Ozpin's authority.

    Oscar also tried to confront Ozpin but he is a child and his soul and Ozpin's are like minded. So it is easier for Ozpin to win any argument (and it will become easier as the merging process of souls progresses).