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RWBY Volume 5 What Went Wrong

Posts (16)

  • zmanxv

    zmanxv FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33718118 - 6 months ago

    To start off let me say I’ve been a fan of RWBY since not long after the first red trailer dropped almost six years ago. This show has been with me since I was a freshmen in highschool and I’ve enjoyed it, that is up until volume five. From what I’ve seen in reviews, this volume is widely panned as the worst volume in the shows history and I have to agree. However I began to think why is this the case? What happened between volumes four and volume five? Now I thought volume four was well down with the only downside being more personal preference as I prefer a slower paced story. I also thought all previous volumes were well done, volume three was especially good.


    I pondered this and came to many possible conclusions. However, they all seemed to not fully define the problem. While the loss of Monty Oum certainly hurt the shows fight quality the story seem largely unaffected. The show for the most part had been written by Miles Luna and Kerry Shawcross since day one and that hasn’t changed. Also Miles has been shown to be a very good writer with his work in Red vs Blue season 10-14, which I thought was some of the series best seasons. While I don’t know much of Kerry’s work before RWBY, volume 5 seems to be the only truly bad one of the series. This only served to puzzle me more. It was certainly possible for good writers to screw up every now and again, it’s rarely this sudden of a drop in quality.


    Thinking this not to be the answer I looked to myself before seeing people's review of the volume. I thought I’d just become more critical given the more serious tone and the maturing of my tastes in entertainment. However this seemed like a poor explanation. Volume four had a more serious tone and volume three became more serious as it went on and I still enjoy them.


    I then looked at others reviews and what they had to say. Some pointed out the lack of an emotional core for most plot threads, others noted the lack of consistent pacing. Some pointed to the exposition dumps and poor directing choices. Another pointed out that all the plot threads to handle are the problem. These and many more criticisms leveled at the volume have their merit and many are certainly true but it still doesn’t explain why all these problem suddenly became glaring now. It’s not as if the previous volumes didn’t have some of these problems.


    As I continued to ponder this I saw a clip of Jordan Peterson explaining why ‘Frozen’ would not be remembered like ‘Beauty and the Beast’, ‘Pinocchio’, and many other disney classic. Simply put, he stated that Frozen had a goal and that it was not simply trying to tell a story. While this is not perfectly applicable as to why RWBY volume five was bad it helped me realized something. What I believe to be the real reason this volume was as poorly done as it was. They put the fans before the story.


    They’ve been on camera stating the always think of the fans when writing. While this isn’t necessarily bad, in fact it can be great motivation to do the best one can, it can cause a problem. This problem is that they are now trying to please the fans instead of making the story as good as it can be. They’re trying to shove in all the stuff fans want while writing the story. The problem this causes is that many times what fans want is not what the story needs. The story should always come first in any work of literature meant to tell one, no exceptions. I believe this to be the root cause of most of the problems in the volume.


    I know there are obviously other problems with the volume that you can’t simple blame on the writers try to give the fans all they want. However, I think it can sum up what either directly or indirectly caused the major problems in the volume. I hope that in the future the writers can level the fanservice to the wayside and get back to telling a good and interesting story.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33718160 - 6 months ago

    In reply to zmanxv

    Poor writing choices early on (the decision to separate the cast directly led to all the problems in season 5, plus allowing one character to dictate the direction of the narrative when the writers said that all eight were mains [in reality, only three of them can legitimately claim that status]) ultimately led to the poor choices made now.  In addition, when you say something like "we'll keep making it as long as it's popular", you should already be flagging the "fans before the story" flag.  I think it's all this, as well as the fact that they also get too wrapped up in "doing the cool thing".  They're also tailoring the rules of Aura to fit whatever narrative they want to do, when Aura is one of those things that need to follow the rules laid out.  I'm sorry, but I think they kept the rules of it vague so they could change them as they needed to, even if what they state doesn't mesh with what has already been shown.

  • krispyclumpy

    krispyclumpy FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33742995 - 1 week ago

    I found nothing wrong with volume 5, except for some combats that left more to be desired. What I sincerely feel is one of the main problems is the shift in atmosphere. People get into shows and movies for a reason. Whether it be romance, fantasy, drama, action, and many more. RWBY started off to be a fantasy/action/adventure type of show. So, it drew in the respective people who love that type of genre. The hate slowly began somewhat in the middle of volume 3 where it shifted to more darker elements. Then here comes volume four where the drama hits. People who prefer action and/or adventure don't usually handle drama well. Especially heavy dialogue. Then when finally action combat scenes come into play in volume 5 (a heavily dialogue/drama/action volume) the action they were eagerly waiting for isn't as great as it should have been. It just left people empty and desiring more. For me, however, I don't find that much wrong with the show because I'm one of the few who didn't get into the show mainly because of the action or, more or less, the adventure. I got into it for the sole purpose of the story that these really interesting character would be put through. I like action, but I see that as a side thing to a show. Hearing the "fans before the story" thing is actually quite heartbreaking. I feel that if they try to do that, they will unintentionally receive more hate not only from the fans they are trying to please, but from others who watch for the same reasons as myself.


    I also feel the other reason is people's minds are sub-conscientiously linking Monty's death to "false" issues they have with the show. I keep wondering, Would RWBY have been the same, slightly different, or completely different if Monty had lived? To many RWBY fan's surprise, I genuinely feel RWBY would have been only slightly different including the quality, action scenes, and maybe the story. If Monty had lived, yet the show had stayed what it is today, I believe we would be seeing a lot less hate. Monty was beloved by many and seen as a genius with his animation skills and, of course, RWBY. I doubt people would be criticizing the show in such drastic ways if Monty was on the receiving end. I have a feeling many people would respond to this with "If Monty had lived, RWBY would be different so there would be no need for the hate.", but how different? What is the different RWBY people believe the show would have been if we had Monty? Problem is, we will sadly never know. There are far too many opinions to run through. At this point, there is really no stopping or controlling how ridiculous or true the opinions of fans are. The only that can be done is how Miles, Kerry, and the whole of RoosterTeeth will react. Depending on how they react will determine the course of the show.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33743060 - 1 week ago

    In reply to zmanxv

    Just curious, which part of volume 5 do you believe was inserted to please fans and did not fit well.


    I personally have only one problem with volume 5, the fight at Haven academy which was in fact only decoration for drama. And it was started with the rather misleading claim the more the merrier. So if you (I did) expected an 8 on 7 of the usual animation standard you were a little disappointed.

    And everybody was quite significantly dumbed down.

  • ZanyGamer196

    ZanyGamer196 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33743062 - 1 week ago

    To me the problem began in Volume 4, with M&K being in such a rush to get everyone to Mistral, so much so that they glossed over a lot of issues, like how all the characters (save for Jaune) were dealing with Pyrrha's death, especially Ruby.  Not to mention we never saw Ruby dealing with how she maimed Tyrian, something she's never done before.


     Same problems occur in Volume 5, they were in such a rush to get to Battle of Haven that they excluded a lot of opportunities for worldbuilding and character development.  Not to mention they barely showed Ozpin's "training from Hell," so we never got a chance to see how the group was progressing.  Though to me, the biggest reason for the Volume's failure was the fact that CRWBY expended nearly all their resources on one single fight.  It almost seemed like they were hoping said fight would make people overlook how flawed the rest of the Volume was.  But putting all their eggs in one basket really hurt them last year, and I truly hope they never make that mistake again.

  • Ace-of-Rogues

    Ace-of-Rogues FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Main Weapon: Rapier Wit

    #33743077 - 1 week ago

    The biggest issue as I see it is simply that they tried to run 4 major plotlines at once with a few minor ones thrown in as well and it blew up in their face. The decision to split up Team RWBY made a lot of sense story-wise, but they simply didn't have enough room, for lack of a better word, to make it work. They bit off more than they could chew, which caused Volume 4 to suffer, and then they had to try and fix it in an organic way in Volume 5, which took away from them developing other characters and progressing the story at a good pace. In a way Volume 4 was the problem with Volume 5, since it had to be used to patch up their earlier mistake. In short, they tried something ambitious, it fell through, and Volume 5 got to play damage-control and clean-up. Now that they've fixed the issue of too many plotlines, not enough space I'm hoping we get an awesome 6th Volume.

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33743093 - 1 week ago

    To add, an issue I had with it was trying to cram the climaxes of both the Menagerie arc and the Haven arc into one season. This created two issues: an overextended sense of tension as one climax completed then the story immediately rolled into another one, and they both took up so much time that there was no time for actual development.

    Therefore, I think it would've been better if they had separated V5 into two volumes with the climax of V5 being Menagerie and the climax of V6 being the battle of Haven. This would've allowed for a stronger climax feeling since it wouldn't have been worn out and would've given time for the much-needed development of RNJR and others. 

  • ZanyGamer196

    ZanyGamer196 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33743099 - 1 week ago

    In reply to spoolofwhool

     Definitely, look what happened when they pushed the Vytal Festival back to Volume 3, this allowed CRWBY to give it the time it needed and deserved, being a global event on Remnant.  Had they done the same with the Battle of Haven, it wouldn't have felt so rushed and thus they'd have had more time to develop both the characters and the rest of the fights in Haven.  Let's all hope they never repeat said mistakes again, they say they have 20 seasons worth of material, so there's no need to rush the story, the ending will still be the same, so to speak.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33743112 - 1 week ago

    In reply to ZanyGamer196

    Let's all hope they never repeat said mistakes again, they say they have 20 seasons worth of material,

    Then I have to upgrade my diet and do more sports. Them authors have a huge lead on remaining lifetime expectancy on me.

    I also was totally surprised that the baddies did not make any progress on critical ressources. They have 0 of 4 relics (Salem's objective) and 1 of 4 maidens (Cinder's objective, do not know the priority for Salem). So calculating the time Salem needs to get the critical 3 relics (just one more and ...), based on current progress gives a DIVIDE BY ZERO. 

    So STAR-WARS-wise we are at IV - an new hope.


    It seems to me that they had the maiden fight already done and also the basic voyage to Haven then they had to cram the "prelude" of the maiden fight into the remaining runtime, which was to short.,

    By the way it is indeed realistic that Ilya disarms all the bombs, because they use the traditional Hollywood-bombs with red-light-armed-indicators, and their bomb builder is an orderly person, who included orderly disarmament pins - nice work, not some Juggernaut trap-sh*t.

  • SaberWulf

    SaberWulf

    #33743130 - 1 week ago

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    Pretty much. Though I'd argue that they should have been well aware they couldn't handle a party split of that size with how little care they gave to anyone other than the main 8. Volume 4 has been the anchor dragging down this plot for a while now because they couldn't evidently see that. That's where my distrust for them really started because if I can't trust the writers to be aware enough of thier own means and capabilities, how am I supposed to just sit back and watch? Answer: I can't and won't.

  • LinkXL1

    LinkXL1

    #33743144 - 1 week ago

    at the very least, i'd like the bluray to have a play movie button

  • NightAccio

    NightAccio FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33743226 - 1 week ago

    In reply to krispyclumpy

    I also feel the other reason is people's minds are sub-conscientiously linking Monty's death to "false" issues they have with the show. I keep wondering, Would RWBY have been the same, slightly different, or completely different if Monty had lived? To many RWBY fan's surprise, I genuinely feel RWBY would have been only slightly different including the quality, action scenes, and maybe the story. If Monty had lived, yet the show had stayed what it is today, I believe we would be seeing a lot less hate. Monty was beloved by many and seen as a genius with his animation skills and, of course, RWBY. I doubt people would be criticizing the show in such drastic ways if Monty was on the receiving end. I have a feeling many people would respond to this with "If Monty had lived, RWBY would be different so there would be no need for the hate.", but how different? What is the different RWBY people believe the show would have been if we had Monty? Problem is, we will sadly never know. There are far too many opinions to run through. At this point, there is really no stopping or controlling how ridiculous or true the opinions of fans are. The only that can be done is how Miles, Kerry, and the whole of RoosterTeeth will react. Depending on how they react will determine the course of the show.

    To be honest, I expected the show to go a darker route since Volume 1 considering they used fairy tale references. I feel like a lot of people aren't aware of the original versions of fairy tales which were not as happy as some people may think (I think too many people are used to seeing the Disney versions of these tales). Heck, even the music since Volume 1 was hinting at it. I do wonder how people would react to knowing that some of those moments they were complaining about in Volume 3 (ie Pyrrha's death) were planned by Monty (the death scene was even planned out a few years beforehand) and that Salem's character was designed back when they were working on Volume 1, so that darker tone has been planned from the start. 

    In reply to Ace-of-Rogues

    The biggest issue as I see it is simply that they tried to run 4 major plotlines at once with a few minor ones thrown in as well and it blew up in their face. The decision to split up Team RWBY made a lot of sense story-wise, but they simply didn't have enough room, for lack of a better word, to make it work. They bit off more than they could chew, which caused Volume 4 to suffer, and then they had to try and fix it in an organic way in Volume 5, which took away from them developing other characters and progressing the story at a good pace. In a way Volume 4 was the problem with Volume 5, since it had to be used to patch up their earlier mistake. In short, they tried something ambitious, it fell through, and Volume 5 got to play damage-control and clean-up. Now that they've fixed the issue of too many plotlines, not enough space I'm hoping we get an awesome 6th Volume.

    Adding on to this, if I remember correctly from a Q&A thread (don't remember where I read it), it was mentioned that they had to remake all the assets for Volume 4 when someone had asked them if they would ever go back to the old volumes and redo it in the new animation style, which probably took away a good chunk of their time when working on that volume (I would imagine there were more things they had to work on going from Poser to Maya). But I thought Volume 4 overall wasn't that bad despite the issues with handling the split storylines.

    I think they should've gotten help from more writers back then for Volume 5 since having Miles, Kerry, and Gray(if i remember correctly) working on the writing for the entire animation department is spreading them thin (didn't know about this till I watched a video summing up their recent panels so was glad to know they were getting help from more writers this time). I've seen a lot of fans during Volume 5 that had been saying that they aren't paying attention to their feedback (which I can understand why they would think that way because not everyone is going to follow their panels, blogs, Q&A threads, and have access to RWBY Rewind to know more of what's going on behind the scenes). But I agree with the opening post that they might've paid too much attention to fan feedback for Volume 5 and trying to fit too many things in. 

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33743257 - 1 week ago

    In reply to NightAccio

    "I do wonder how people would react to knowing that some of those

    moments they were complaining about in Volume 3 (ie Pyrrha's death) were
    planned by Monty (the death scene was even planned out a few years
    beforehand) and that Salem's character was designed back when they were
    working on Volume 1, so that darker tone has been planned from the
    start."

    I know of this, and I regard it as an ineffective piece of writing.  It does not matter how far back you planned it, what matters is how effective you are at implementing the plan, and in the moment of Pyrrha's death, it was wholly ineffective from the most basic level.

  • BakedBrain

    BakedBrain FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33743342 - 1 week ago

    In reply to NightAccio

    Going darker is an absolutely natural and organic development in school/action settings. The pupils are prepared for something. Basically you do not fight simulations in a secured environment any more, but real opponents who want to kill you. 

  • LinkXL1

    LinkXL1

    #33744750 - 1 day ago

    so i found this...


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-H0KuOwKFYwZTJxbXg0SG5CTEE/view

  • spoolofwhool

    spoolofwhool

    #33744765 - 1 day ago

    In reply to LinkXL1

    That's pretty old news. Some interesting tidbits, but overall nothing compelling since it's likely he wasn't in a very good state of mind when he wrote it and this is also just one side of a story written by someone who likely didn't have a full picture of events happening.


    For those wondering but didn't check the link, it's Shane's letter.