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Pyrrha Nikos Needs To Stay Dead

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  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33721046 - 1 month ago

    — Please Remember That Art Is Subjective & Any Opinions Given Here Are My Own —

    Despite my user name, I can safely say that Pyrrha Nikos was easily one of my favorite characters in RWBY & like most of the community — I was both shocked & horrified at her death.  However, it seems that many fans have failed to progress beyond the first stage of grief.


    There are five stages of grief — outlined by Swiss psychiatrist Elizabeth Kübler-Ross in 1969.  They are as follows:


    1.) Denial - avoidance • confusion • shock • fear

    2.) Anger - frustration • irritation • anxiety

    3.) Bargaining - struggling to find meaning • reaching out to others

    4.) Depression - overwhelmed • helplessness • hostility • flight

    5.) Acceptance - exploring options • new plan in place • moving forward


    Some fans — admittedly have moved onto the second stage & seem content to remain there.  But, continuing on —


    Let's begin with the harsh truth — Pyrrha was always going to die.  That's simply how she was written.  Monty knew her fate from the beginning of Volume One.  Do I believe in destiny?  No — I believe in the writing staff having full control over the outcome of the story.


    So what purpose did her death serve?  Well, there are two that I can name off the top of my head:


    1.) Raising the Stakes

    2.) Loss of Innocence


    With her death, the audience now knew that characters could be killed if the writers saw fit to do so.  Sure, Yang lost her arm in the episode prior — and I'm sure there were more than a few heart-attacks at the decapitation fake-out — but we knew Yang wasn't going anywhere.  Pyrrha — on the other hand — caught everyone off guard.  Everyone had faith that Ruby would save her at the last moment.  Pyrrha wasn't a side character, she wasn't a villain — she had been with us since the second episode of the show & was arguably the best combatant Beacon Academy had to offer.  If this fate could happen to her, it could happen to anyone.


    Her death told the students at Beacon — and in a way, us as well — that this world was cruel & unforgiving.  The days of epic food fights & living in relative saftey were a thing of the past.  Ozpin himself states:


    "But right now they're still children, so why not let them play the part?  After all, it isn't a role they'll have forever."

    We all knew that at some point dark days were coming — we just didn't know when or how.  There is nothing wrong with leaving a character — even a beloved one — dead.  


    Let me ask you — all of you:


    How many of you wept at the end of the second episode of Volume IV?  I know I did.  

    How many of you felt their hearts ache when Jaune wore the Pyrrha's red sash in remberance?  

    How many of you got choked up at seeing the three remaining members of Team JNPR in their room during Ruby's closing monologue?


    Bringing Pyrrha back would cheapen all of those moments.  They would no longer carry any emotional weight.  When you remove death from the equation, you remove risk.  You remove loss, you remove tragedy.  These are powerful elements in storytelling & yes, they should be used sparingly.  But when you use them — make them count.


    To close, I'm going to go a bit off-topic & discuss Marvel's Agents of Shield.  Don't worry, I won't spoil anything if you aren't caught up.  But there is a point.  Season Four was — at times — painful to watch.  Not because it was bad, but because it was really good.  And you knew that if someone died — they were gone.  And the show doesn't shy away from killing major or even beloved characters.  But anytime it happens — they make it count.


    When Pyrrha died, we were all shocked.  Many of us were brought to tears.  Whether she died in vain or not is irrelevant — when she died, our hearts stopped — then they broke.  For better or for worse — Rooster Teeth made that moment count.


    And still — even in death — Pyrrha is the driving force for Jaune wanting to better himself.


    — As Always, I Welcome Any Comments, I Simply Ask That You Be Civil To Each Other — And Myself —
  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33721343 - 1 month ago

    I completely agree with you on that. I consider Pyrrha's death to be the main turning point of the show because it introduced death within the "good" side (Penny's death too but she was a robot and Roman was a vilain). And how death is handled is one of my biggest criteria ; the more realistic it is the better it is for me. If you die, you don't come back.

    But RWBY is a fictional show so if resurrection is possible, I wouldn't mind as long as it remains coherent : if Pyrrha resurrects, first it has to be strongly justified and then, Roman and Summer should resurrect too for example. If RT only resurrects one of the most beloved characters just to satisfy the fans, this would be a huge mistake and would weaken even more the show (again, this is my opinion, the writers are at the helm).

    So if it was only up to me, then I would make sure Pyrrha never comes back (I loved Pyrrha just to be clear).

    Now we still can't say if resurrection is impossible or not in RWBY. I have the feeling that some sort of resurrection is indeed possible : 

    - Ruby's dreams when she hears Pyrrha : where does it come from ? I believe this is somehow linked to the silver eyes (notice the silver "fog" the two times she had these). These eyes are one of the most powerful weapon to fight the Grimms (so death basically), they strongly represent life so maybe they can connect with life even beyond death. It is not a sign of resurrection but a connection you could have with the deads.

    - Raven's comment "I know people who can comeback from the dead" : did she have Ozpin in mind or someone else ? If so, who ? These needs explanations because it would straight demonstrate that resurrection is possible.

    I want V6 to address these two points ! At least the silver-eyes thing (conversation between Ruby, Qrow and Ozpin ?). Dammit, why Ruby never asked about this despite what Qrow said ? She straight understood this makes her even more helpful so... more informations should do good no ? And why did she never talk about her dreams with Jaune ?? He desperatly needs to talk with someone about Pyrrha (maybe this was done off screen but if so, why don't show it ?)

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33721388 - 1 month ago

    Rooster Teeth are stretching themselves thin with multiple series & weekly time-slots & the story suffers as a result.  


    Ruby has never asked about her new-found ability which is highly unnatural.  It's akin to being informed that you have a super-power but you never ask questions about it — nor does anyone else.

  • jamesnorbury

    jamesnorbury FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Definitely Not A Bot

    #33721395 - 1 month ago

    In reply to CinderFaII


    I think you're probably right.. but the way she died was different to others we've seen fall (dispersing). Maybe this is to do with the Fall Maiden's powers, or the significance of the character and just a nice visual effect, but perhaps there is something more to it? However, there are definitely things we don't know about (magic / resurrection / what can a single relic do?) so maybe it is in the realms of possibility to bring her back. If it can be justified, and the sacrifice required to bring her back doesn't cheapen what has happened then I'd be happy to see her return. But it's massive ask, and in all likelihood the best thing is to leave her dead.


    Pyrrha's death has caused a lot of character development (Jaune), makes me question if any character will live or dye in a given situation (Qrow was a close call!), and will have made the show much better in the process!

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33721401 - 1 month ago

    Well, you should ask this question :


    Do you want her to be resurrected in order to further the story — or simply because you miss her?  


    I miss her as well, but I'm content to let her go.  Even in death, she is a powerful driving force.

  • jamesnorbury

    jamesnorbury FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Definitely Not A Bot

    #33721403 - 1 month ago

    In reply to CinderFaII


    I would only want her resurrected in order to further the story! As much as I do miss her it would be such a waste to bring her back without a good reason. I would definitely prefer that she stays dead and Jaune continues to develop due to her death.


    Do you think there is anything behind the way she disappeared when she died or was that just a dramatic death?

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33721406 - 1 month ago

    In reply to jamesnorbury

    My personal thoughts are that it was Cinder giving her a "Viking Funeral".  


    Pyrrha fought her without powers & while Cinder is generally an emotionless statue — I can see her having a modicum of respect for Pyrrha & what she tried to achieve.  She obviously didn't know Ruby was there so I highly doubt that it was done out of cruelty.  


    Then again, I could be over-analyzing the scene & someone in Animation simply thought that it would look cool.

  • jamesnorbury

    jamesnorbury FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Definitely Not A Bot

    #33721411 - 1 month ago

    In reply to CinderFaII

    I like your reasoning, and it's fitting with Cinder's character and visual theme. Likewise I'm unsure if I'm over-analysing by thinking there was more to her death. Oh well, all that's left to do is re-watch it again! xD

  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33721425 - 1 month ago

    I think the way Cinder made Pyrrha disappear was a mix between her semblance and her maiden power but we never had any explanation. I would like to see another kill by another maiden to see if there is indeed a repetitive pattern or not (Raven on Cinder was not a kill in my opinion). Maybe a maiden's kill is different from a "regular" kill.

  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.2

    #33721458 - 1 month ago

    In reply to jamesnorbury

    I've posted this elsewhere but I've always been a fan of her coming back as a corrupt villain under Salem. Not only would she be a fierce opponent as warrior but she would be a strong emotional weapon, especially to team RNJR.

     

    This would be most interesting for Jaune especially, there's a lot they could do in relation to him in his development.

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33721462 - 1 month ago

    In reply to JROY

    I have no doubt that she would indeed be a fierce opponent — no one is questioning that.  But as the story in RWBY stands right now, there are far too many questions that need addressing & far too many sub-plots that need closure.  


    A resurrection — or in this case — a corruption arc — would only sidetrack the story further.  Rooster Teeth has more than enough on their plate to contend with without adding in more variables.  Off the top of my head, the following still need to be addressed:


    The fate of Neo.

    Emerald & her newfound illusion powers.

    Adam & his defeat at Blake's hands.

    Is Cinder truly dead? 

    If she's not dead — what happens?  If she is — the same question applies.

    What are the relics?

    What exactly does having Silver Eyes mean?

    Where is Winter Schnee?

    Will Emerald & Mercury remain with Salem?

    Will Hazel remain loyal to Salem?

    Who & where is the next Maiden?

    Is Summer Rose alive or dead & if she's dead — was she murdered?

    Will Yang get a re-match with Adam or Mercury?


    These are just off the top off my head & even that is a lot of ground to cover.  


    Even in death, Pyrrha is a driving force in Jaune's character development.  It's not that I don't want to see Pyrrha again — I'm simply looking at this from a logistical point-of view.  Rooster Teeth does not have the resources to address all the issues I have listed — and I'm sure there are several that I missed — while attempting to shoehorn in a narrative that we simply do not need.

  • jamesnorbury

    jamesnorbury FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Definitely Not A Bot

    #33721543 - 1 month ago

    In reply to Velrak

    I'm with you there on Raven on Cinder, I don't think she died. Would be interesting to see another maiden kill or some kind of explanation (if it's significant, may have just been a cool effect XD)!


    In reply to JROY

    Ooo, that sounds cool! I saw some pretty sweet art of Pyrrha looking all Grimm / Salem-ey, sure was interesting. I'm not sure it'll happen though, but like CinderFall said it'd be hard to fit it in with everything else going on.


    Either way, just need the next volume to come out to see where they take it! :3

  • MichaelHalpe

    MichaelHalpe FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33721557 - 1 month ago

    In reply to CinderFaII

    They're stretching themselves thin with multiple series & weekly timeslots & the story suffers as a result.  Ruby has never asked about her new-found ability which is highly unnatural.  It's akin to being informed that you have a super-power but you never ask questions about it — nor does anyone else.

    Actually we don't know if she has asked, but she has more important things to worry about, it seems to only effect grim and people with grim augmentations (Cinder had a piece of Grim in her to steal Amber's powers) and she needs to get better at fighting so she doesn't use it as a crutch

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33721567 - 1 month ago

    In reply to MichaelHalpe

    Well, actually we do know that she hasn't asked — because we have not seen her do so.  


    Show the story — don't tell it.  


    And besides — there was essentially an entire episode of nothing but Q & A — not very productive questions — but Ruby had more than enough time to ask any question she wanted.


    "What are these new powers?"

    "How did I freeze a dragon?"

    "Do Silver Eyes mean I can stop Cinder?"

    "Why?"


    Or even:


    "What happened to my mother?"


    And while I agree that Ruby needs to learn how to fight without Crescent Rose — there is no way that she can compete with someone like Mercury — after all, he went toe-to-toe with Pyrrha & Yang.  He straight up demolished Coco & Yatsuhashi.  Short of training Ruby to become a cold-blooded assassin — which is how Mercury was trained — she can't compete. 


    But then again, she isn't supposed to be a killer.  A character isn't simply defined by their strengths — but by their weaknesses as well.

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33722950 - 4 weeks ago

    In reply to Velrak

    It's possible that Jaune in some way feels guilty for her death — survivor's guilt is not uncommon — it would also explain his vitriolic outrage directed at Cinder in Volume 5.


    I'm not a big fan of resurrection in general.  It's a cheap out & it removes the element of risk in a dangerous world.  It is also an emotional shield.


    "Would't you like to see this person again?"


    Well, yes I would, but it wouldn't be the same.  The only times that I feel resurrection is done well is when a happy ending is not guaranteed.


    Example:

    This person may come back — but only for a day.

    This person may come back — but only in return for someone else's life (not an enemy ... no cheating)

    This person may come back — but they won't know or remember anything about you.

    This person may come back — but you can never interact with them.


    Those are all very cruel scenarios — but they're good ones.  They force difficult choices upon others & that develops character.


    But as you know, I'm generally against the concept of reviving characters to mend broken hearts.


    SIDE NOTE:

    I have to ask this — why does Ruby know Cinder's name? 


    It's not as though they ever hung out together.  They met once in the hallway, once at the communication tower & once atop Beacon Tower.  I'm assuming someone told her — who that would be I don't know since Ruby has only been with the members of Team RNJR since the end of Volume III  & other than Jaune — I don't think any of them ever met her.  


    It's a small — admittedly pointless — detail, but those things bug me.

  • MichaelHalpe

    MichaelHalpe FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33722979 - 4 weeks ago

    In reply to CinderFaII


    there are other ways resurrection can be done right, Dr.Who has been doing it for decades, but that technique only works for certain types of characters..


  • Velrak

    Velrak

    #33722982 - 4 weeks ago

    Well technically, Ruby and Cinder also met in the very first episode. But come on, I think it is safe to assume someone told Ruby Cinder's name (especially after the Fall of Beacon !). Not every show can be perfect ; there will always be details like this which don't harm the story. Here is another completely similar detail : how did Roman know Blake's name ? (V2/Chap11, train fight) They only met twice before and Blake never revealed her name during these occasions. When I noticed it, I just assume someone told Roman. This is no big deal and also quite likely.


    Resurrection : like I said, if it were only up to me I would prefer to see Pyrrha remain dead even if I love her character. But so far, we can't say resurrection is impossible. In fact, it seems to be a real possibility and I'm not against it as long as the CRWBY does it properly. You can't just resurrect Pyrrha to please the audience, it has to be justified and relevant to the story. I like your scenarios but they shouldn't come out of nowhere. So wait and see :)

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33723027 - 4 weeks ago

    Ok, time to drop the facade, CinderFall.  This topic is nothing more than you expressing a grudge against the Pyrrha Nikos thread for their contributors decisively countering your nonsense about Cinder Fall being a redeemable character months ago.  Your "contributions" there after that, along with the flooding of topics on the main RWBY forum page?  Same thing.  And finally, I've heard these same arguments, using much the same wording, from other people in the past (except maybe the Agents of Shield bit).  Almost none of what you have said is your own words, and even then, I don't think you actually believe them yourself.  You've just chosen to take the opposing side out of spite against those who popped your little "Cinder Fall" echo chamber bubble.

    You have some brass balls calling for civility when you yourself show none, and you betray that in the first paragraph of your first post here.  In addition, you utilize several logical fallacies and objective falsehoods in your piteous plea for emotional support...and that's all you're REALLY after: support against the Pyrrha Nikos topic contributors.

    The biggest thing in all of this: you only reappeared when I made the announcement that I was withdrawing from the public forums, which clearly means that you hadn't really left.  Now, I made it clear then that I was more than willing to talk one-on-one with people, but to stay informed, I was still hanging around and keeping up with the topics.  Simply put, you only hid until your biggest detractor was gone.

    Make no mistake, you have quite the silver tongue on you.  It is also a forked tongue.  Some of the people who have contributed here have already gotten wise to your game.  Time for the rest of them to.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33723029 - 4 weeks ago

    Funny thing is, you've made a major assumption: that Pyrrha's revival isn't planned, and that they'd NEVER consider it.  I'll find it fucking hilarious if it actually is.  What will you do then, with your pretty words about how resurrection inherently cheapens death, a simplistic viewpoint that has been effectively dis-proven many times in the past?  Also, you need to stop trying to paint the contributors of the Pyrrha Nikos thread as people who are focused on the emotional impact to themselves alone.  Anyone can look into that topic and see for themselves that it's far more detailed and in-depth, and more focused on the narrative weight that it would bring, so stop lying to people there.

    Finally, you seem to think that they'd be crushed if it doesn't happen, and that's the biggest false assumption of them all here.  Know what the Pyrrha Nikos topic contributors will do if Pyrrha doesn't get revived?  Nothing.  Nothing at all.  But I highly suspect that you will be one of the ones pulling their hair out if she DOES come back, and it'll be more because YOU were wrong and THEY weren't, not because of any real viewpoint you have.  Them ultimately being right is a total defeat for you, and that's the LAST thing you want.

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33723063 - 4 weeks ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    Well, that certainly is a lot to unpack.


    To begin with, I was unaware that you had left the forums.  Why you chose my post as a reason to return is — interesting.  


    As for remaining civil, I have called no one out, nor named any threads that I was previously a party to.  Obviously, people can look at my history & see what I've written — but that can be done by any member of the forums.  


    Admittedly, I was bitter when I left — but I moved on & never looked back.  And if updated forum topics get pushed to the top of the list, talk to Rooster Teeth — not me.


    As for whether I garner emotional support or not is completely irrelevant.  I made a topic expressing my views & if people don't like them or care for them that is perfectly fine.  No one has to share in my views.  I've made it very clear that these are my opinions.  Art is subjective — therefore, others are more than free to disagree with anything I have said.


    Moving on to the posters from the original forum.  I do not believe for a moment that they would be emotionally crushed if Pyrrha were never resurrected.  But more importantly, I can't imagine why you think I would want them to be.  RWBY is — after all — only a show.  I will always value the emotional health of real individuals over a fictional universe.


    Now, if Rooster Teeth does in fact bring Pyrrha back from the dead — something that is fully within their rights to do (I have never disputed this fact) — I can only hope that it is done with the utmost care & benefit to the story.  If they manage to accomplish that, well — great.  


    I'd love to see her alive again.  I just don't see a logistical way for them to pull it off along with everything else they have to do.


    I've been wrong before & the odds are very good that I'll be wrong again.


    With all that said, this is simply a public opinion.  It's my opinion.  I'm allowed to have it.


    You're taking this far more seriously than I am.

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33723064 - 4 weeks ago

    In reply to MichaelHalpe

    I'll have to look at some of those.  smiley

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33723065 - 4 weeks ago

    In reply to Velrak

    I know, small details like that just drive me nuts even if they are rather pointless.


    Yes — we all just have to wait & see.  Good times.

  • WrightKnight

    WrightKnight

    #33723071 - 4 weeks ago

    In reply to CinderFaII

    Bullshit.  I made that announcement, and within a few days at most, you come back?  Yeah sure, gonna believe that one.  You've also alluded to the Pyrrha Nikos topic enough, including in this topic, and that's how you violate your own call for civility.  You did not need to name them, and your extreme politeness of tone hides your lack of civility.  You also said jack shit about Pyrrha coming back until you got called out for your Cinder nonsense.  Also, the idea that "art is subjective" becomes false when the art has a specific purpose, and that is to tell a story, as RWBY tries to.  This is true for any form of fiction.

  • CinderFaII

    CinderFaII Veritas Omnia Vincit

    #33723074 - 4 weeks ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    Where did you make the announcement?  On a thread I don't follow?  


    And yes, I have made allusions — but I have never & would never be so callous as to name an individual, a thread or even a thread topic.  I simply state that my views were not well met & that I chose to leave.  That's a very condensed version, but anything I wrote is free for anyone to read on my profile — I have nothing to hide.  The thread I alluded to could've be about anything & anyone. 


    The one who brought up that it was a thread about Pyrrha was you — not me.  


    As for the possibility of Pyrrha's return being planned — well, come on, there are twenty three posts — no one had really brought that topic up yet.


    As for my polite tone — I never really saw that being called out, but okay — that's simply the way I speak.  Granted, in real-life I am a bit more sardonic & tend to curse a great deal more — but on forums, twitter — basically anything on-line, I do my best to come across as civil & relaxed.


    But let's move on to the topic of art.  I — just as much as anyone else — am allowed their opinion when it comes to this topic.  I have been very clear that anything I say is indeed my opinion.  People are allowed to challenge that opinion & sometimes — I end up changing my stance.  In fact, in one of my posts, I make the argument that Pyrrha could still be alive in some way — who knew?


    I would like to point out that at least one contributor from the other thread has already posted in here prior to your arrival.  When it happened it caught me off guard because I wasn't sure what to expect.  But they were polite & presented some interesting ideas.  And that really was that.


    So, I'm a bit confused.  What exactly do you want?  Am I not allowed to express my opinion publicly because you disagree with it?  Am I harassing or messaging people from the other thread?  If I am, report me.


    But the fact remains that I'm not doing anything except minding my own business.


    To be honest, this thread was probably going to die off— until you showed up.

  • JROY

    JROY FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Gaurdian Lvl.2

    #33723169 - 4 weeks ago

    In reply to WrightKnight

    Wright cool it this has been here before you said you were leaving. Cinder doesn't visit the thread anyways.