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So Salem can't be "destroyed" - so what?

Posts (9)

  • ParagonFury


    #33745334 - 6 months ago

    One thing that is bugging me is how in a twist everyone's panties - including Ozma - are over the fact that Salem can't be "destroyed". While maybe I could see it getting at Ruby, Yang and Weiss - Blake (an experienced guerrilla fighter and saboteur), Qrow (and experienced Huntsmen and Hunter of Hunters) should've been able to realize that "stop" is NOT the same thing as destroy.

    Hell, Raven, smart as she is, should've been able to think this one through.

    Ozma, with his centuries of experience, should've been able to come up with this one.

    You don't need to kill an enemy to neutralize them - just put them in such a state that they no longer pose a (significant) threat to you or your goals. 

    Salem can and *does* suffer injury, damage. She can be hurt, even to the point where her entire body is destroyed, and then has her "Can't die" clause take effect and resurrect her. It's likely why she doesn't do anything herself, because she still feels pain and can be stopped (temporarily) by having her body destroyed - otherwise there'd be no point in wasting time with minions when she could just casually stroll down the streets of Remnant pimp slapping all of Humanity and Fanus to death at her leisure, unable to be stopped.

    But thanks to Salem herself, Cinder and the God of Destruction we know magic and a person's powers can forcibly be taken away from them. So strip Salem of her magic and command of the Grimm and suddenly she is no longer a massive threat and can safely be ignored. 

    Let's say that isn't possible though - then there is another option. For those of you into comics, you might've read World War Hulk. In it Hulk is attempting to take over the Earth and must fight Earth's various heroes, including Wolverine and Laura/X-23. Both Wolverine and Laura/X-23 can regenerate to the point where they're effectively immortal and indestructible (from a single cell) and are strong enough to legitimately pose a threat to the Hulk.

    Knowing this, Hulk comes up with a rather simple solution;

    Have you ever seen a boxer whose taken a few too many blows to the head? Wobbly, trouble with words, bad coordination, not all there?

    Hulk simply punches X-23 and Wolverine in the face until they're vegetables. They're not dead, there is nothing to regenerate - their brains are just scrambled eggs and they're effectively harmless.

    Apply a generous helping of blunt force trauma to Salem's head over and over and over until she's a drooling mess - don't smash her head and kill her - and let her own "strength" become her downfall. She can't come back from something that isn't going to kill her. She's not dead - she's just, uh, special needs now and effectively rendered harmless. Even if she starts to recover it's not like it's hard to find a bloke with a hammer or someone who punches hard to reapply the treatment.

    I mean, it might be a touch morbid and brutal, but Salem is murdering thousands of people and sending hellbeasts to torment them so, you know.

    I feel like this is just another case of characters taking "Can't be destroyed" as the end-all-be-all rather than the invitation to get creative that it is.

  • Ace-of-Rogues

    Ace-of-Rogues FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Main Weapon: Rapier Wit

    #33745385 - 6 months ago

    In reply to ParagonFury

    This guy, right here. I've been saying the same thing, although I tend more towards creating a prison that can hold Salem, since that avoids some of the uncertainties regarding her healing factor. Make a cell that will hold her, render her unconscious long enough to get her in, then take that cell and drop it in Remnant's equivalent of the Mariana Trench. I doubt even magic can counter pressure more than a 1000 times greater than what we experience at sea level pulverizing her body over, and over, and over.

  • K0H


    #33745501 - 5 months ago

    Every "contain the evil" story ends with the evil getting out though. And I think this is really about the big idea here more so than the exact details. As in you simply can't defeat Salem by force. She has to be made to let go.

  • The_Knight_of_Valor


    #33745514 - 5 months ago

    In reply to ParagonFury 

    Wait that part about Hulk beating wolverine and X-23 makes no damn sense at all. 

    If they can regenerate from a single cell which would mean their brain was also destroyed, then how can they not regenerate from having their heads smashed in a way to cause "brain damage". 

  • VoshTheStampede

    VoshTheStampede FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold For Science

    #33745515 - 5 months ago

    In reply to K0H

    Not in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. Kars became the perfect lifeform with utterly no weaknesses. So what did the heroes do? They launched his ass into space, and he stayed there. The narration even says that his brain went so numb from the isolation that he just stopped thinking altogether, becoming an immortal, lobotomized statue slowly floating out of the solar system. 

  • ParagonFury


    #33745543 - 5 months ago

    In reply to The_Knight_of_Valor

    Because brain damage doesn't really work in the same way that normal damage does, especially when it affects the psyche. It'd be like fixing a busted HDD; even if you put the parts back together perfectly or replaced them with new parts, the data is still gone or unusable.

    Inflict brain damage on Salem, but don't kill her - even if her "body" fixes itself, there is no way to get back what was lost because you've already got all the "lost stuff" back, it just doesn't work exactly the same way it used to.

    This is assuming her powers/curse even works on non-fatal wounds at all; if it doesn't she is completely screwed then (and would explain why she doesn't do things personally).

  • VoshTheStampede

    VoshTheStampede FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold For Science

    #33745545 - 5 months ago

    In reply to ParagonFury

    While we haven't seen how quickly non-fatal wounds heal on her, I think it's probably something she tried during her many many attempts to kill herself. Also, using brain damage to remove memories doesn't really work when magic gets involved. Magic usually solves the issue by having memories stored in the "soul" rather than in the brain (which is how Ozpin's memories travel with him when he reincarnates). 

    I still believe Salem can be defeated without killing her, but I don't think there's a clinical method to doing so. 

  • gorriller

    gorriller FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33746353 - 5 months ago

    Go back to season 1, episode 1, recall that Ozpin, as the male narrator, said 

    "Perhaps victory is in the simpler things we have long forgotten.  Things that require a smaller, more honest soul."  

    It is the opening soundtrack that has the lyrics "... Victory is in a simple soul."

    Ruby is obviously the answer.  HOW she is the answer I haven't figured out yet.  I'm sure season 6 will give us a few more clues.

  • AenarTenthSkraeling

    AenarTenthSkraeling FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    #33746585 - 5 months ago

    In reply to jVictor

    Which was nonsense since a volcano should not have been capable of launching them into space in the first place. But in any case Salem has magic. More magic than anyone else on the planet. One of the abilities granted by magic is the ability to fly. So aside from the obvious difficulty of launching the most powerful being alive into space without her consent you also run into the issue that she can simply fly right back down to earth.

    We have also seen her Summon Grimm to her location. If she can pull a trick like that in reverse, say by creating a portal that pulls her to her castle then Plan Space X becomes even more useless.

    In reply to ParagonFury

    Salem came back from being turned into a pile of ash or goo on the ground. If that didn't cause permanent brain damage then nothing else will. 

    In reply to gorriller

    The Gods did put in a "out" clause in Salem's curse. If she learns the importance of life and death then she will finally be allowed to pass on.